"440 source" (stroker kits) for a mid 1970's 440 motor. Cylinder material removal for rod clearance.

[davidplymouth1@]

I want to know the best/efficient way to remove material from the cylinders. Do it before or after the machine boring process? Can I cut them all the same depth after I do the first one? I'm getting confusing info from 440 source and my machinist's front office. "440 source" says that after the machinist bores the cylinders first and then I order the exact kit I need. I may have to remove material from the cylinder bores for the rods by test fitting each piston into the bore. "440 source" also says that some 440's using the 500 and 512 kits need no cylinder material removed. I want to be ready if it does require material removed for the rods to clear. And that's where my machinist front office and "440 source" seem to contradict each other. I'm going with the 512 kit for sure. It's the biggest kit that doesn't require external oiling re-routing. I understand that the oil pick up hole will need to be shaved down. I can do that before it even goes to the machinist. Its' the cylinders that seem to be a hassle. 440 source says to install every piston one at a time and carefully mark and grind each bore one at a time. Then I must take the block back to my machinist to get the final hone done. "440 source" says every block is honed 2 times...once before the cylinders are notched for the rods and again after the bores are notched to hone and match fit the pistons in each bore. Why not just have the pistons fitted first, then notch all of the cylinders at once - clean everything and assemble it? And why can't I notch one cylinder and then just match the rest for the depth needed? I mean mark the sides where the rods go. But then set the depth the same for all cylinders. Why does each piston rod need to be fitted for exact clearance for each rod notch. Also, my machinist front office says no one can balance a rotating assembly without the flex plate. 440 source says they don't need the flex plate to balance everything. Which makes sense to me. I sure could use some advise on this topic. Thanks

 

[Kern Dog]

A machinist that has experience with Mopar engines with increased strokes may know where to grind without even having to mock anything up. The bottoms of the cylinders are well below the water passages so you can grind away a bit more than you need and still be okay. My machinist likes to have the pistons before a final hone. I've always had him measure the bores and estimate how far he'd have to bore them. 5 or 6 engines with this guy now and he hasn't been wrong yet. He measures, I order pistons. He bores the cylinders then finish hones them when I bring the pistons in to him
The only long stroke build I brought to him, he knew where to grind for clearance even without having to mock anything up. He isn't a dedicated Mopar guy but knew what he was doing.
No, he did not use a torque plate and no, he did not hone twice.
My 440/495 runs strong and uses so little oil, it amazes me. The oil seems to stay clean awhile too.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

A 440 stroker is typically neutral balanced. It doesnt need a flex plate bolted to it to balance it. Some engine do and it sounds like this a shop that wants everyone to bring in the parts that"could" affect balancing. So if they ask for a flex plate..no harm in bringing one and not worth arguing over.

 

[Nxcoupe]

A 440 stroker is typically neutral balanced. It doesnt need a flex plate bolted to it to balance it. Some engine do and it sounds like this a shop that wants everyone to bring in the parts that"could" affect balancing. So if they ask for a flex plate..no harm in bringing one and not worth arguing over.

Provided they drill the crank and not the flexplate or balancer. I had a shop do that to me on an engine. That flywheel and balancer were married to that crank rods and pistons. Dumbest crap I ever saw.

I want to know the best/efficient way to remove material from the cylinders. Do it before or after the machine boring process? Can I cut them all the same depth after I do the first one? I'm getting confusing info from 440 source and my machinist's front office. "440 source" says that after the machinist bores the cylinders first and then I order the exact kit I need. I may have to remove material from the cylinder bores for the rods by test fitting each piston into the bore. "440 source" also says that some 440's using the 500 and 512 kits need no cylinder material removed. I want to be ready if it does require material removed for the rods to clear. And that's where my machinist front office and "440 source" seem to contradict each other. I'm going with the 512 kit for sure. It's the biggest kit that doesn't require external oiling re-routing. I understand that the oil pick up hole will need to be shaved down. I can do that before it even goes to the machinist. Its' the cylinders that seem to be a hassle. 440 source says to install every piston one at a time and carefully mark and grind each bore one at a time. Then I must take the block back to my machinist to get the final hone done. "440 source" says every block is honed 2 times...once before the cylinders are notched for the rods and again after the bores are notched to hone and match fit the pistons in each bore. Why not just have the pistons fitted first, then notch all of the cylinders at once - clean everything and assemble it? And why can't I notch one cylinder and then just match the rest for the depth needed? I mean mark the sides where the rods go. But then set the depth the same for all cylinders. Why does each piston rod need to be fitted for exact clearance for each rod notch. Also, my machinist front office says no one can balance a rotating assembly without the flex plate. 440 source says they don't need the flex plate to balance everything. Which makes sense to me. I sure could use some advise on this topic. Thanks

You absolutely don't want to be grinding on a freshly cleaned engine with cam bearings and all the plugs in it. You can't do it beforehand because the pistons won't fit the bores.
I have just used old bearings in the block and set the crank in and used 2 rods on one journal. I rotate the crank around and move the rods to make sure they don't hit, and mark where they do or where they are close. I do that for each cylinder pair. Just doing each in the same spot sounds easy but it doesn't account for production variances in castings. Just do it right, you're investing a lot of time and money.

 

[gkent]

You do all the clearancing AFTER the machine work. You have to be able to get the crank and a piston and rod in the block to know what's going to hit where. You clearance each cylinder seperately as necessary.

 

[Cranky]

A machinist that has experience with Mopar engines with increased strokes may know where to grind without even having to mock anything up. The bottoms of the cylinders are well below the water passages so you can grind away a bit more than you need and still be okay. My machinist likes to have the pistons before a final hone. I've always had him measure the bores and estimate how far he'd have to bore them. 5 or 6 engines with this guy now and he hasn't been wrong yet. He measures, I order pistons. He bores the cylinders then finish hones them when I bring the pistons in to him
The only long stroke build I brought to him, he knew where to grind for clearance even without having to mock anything up. He isn't a dedicated Mopar guy but knew what he was doing.
No, he did not use a torque plate and no, he did not hone twice.
My 440/495 runs strong and uses so little oil, it amazes me. The oil seems to stay clean awhile too.

And if you have core shift.....? Rather do a mock up to see just how much needs to be taken out for rod clearance. It's time consuming but with a piston on it's rod with NO rings, it's pretty easy if you consider doing all that easy

 

[Rebelrouser]

I want to know the best/efficient way to remove material from the cylinders. Do it before or after the machine boring process? Can I cut them all the same depth after I do the first one? I'm getting confusing info from 440 source and my machinist's front office. "440 source" says that after the machinist bores the cylinders first and then I order the exact kit I need. I may have to remove material from the cylinder bores for the rods by test fitting each piston into the bore. "440 source" also says that some 440's using the 500 and 512 kits need no cylinder material removed. I want to be ready if it does require material removed for the rods to clear. And that's where my machinist front office and "440 source" seem to contradict each other. I'm going with the 512 kit for sure. It's the biggest kit that doesn't require external oiling re-routing. I understand that the oil pick up hole will need to be shaved down. I can do that before it even goes to the machinist. Its' the cylinders that seem to be a hassle. 440 source says to install every piston one at a time and carefully mark and grind each bore one at a time. Then I must take the block back to my machinist to get the final hone done. "440 source" says every block is honed 2 times...once before the cylinders are notched for the rods and again after the bores are notched to hone and match fit the pistons in each bore. Why not just have the pistons fitted first, then notch all of the cylinders at once - clean everything and assemble it? And why can't I notch one cylinder and then just match the rest for the depth needed? I mean mark the sides where the rods go. But then set the depth the same for all cylinders. Why does each piston rod need to be fitted for exact clearance for each rod notch. Also, my machinist front office says no one can balance a rotating assembly without the flex plate. 440 source says they don't need the flex plate to balance everything. Which makes sense to me. I sure could use some advise on this topic. Thanks

you will need to do very little grinding at the bottom of the bores. I just use a die grinder and a black magic marker. I have some used bearings to install the crank, just need front and back. You can slip in two rods and pistons with no rings and mark the bottom of the cylinders, then simply measure the rest of the cylinders and mark them with the marker, using a dial caliper to check the depth. As mentioned, no water in the bottom of the bore so it is not super picky. If you don't have cleaning equipment, then I personally would do it before machine work. And I would blow and wash the block to remove as many grindings as possible before sending to machine shop just to be sure. Grinding leaves metal everywhere. I usually stuff shop towels in the cam bore area to try and keep dust out of there, just makes it easier to clean.

 

[Cranky]

you will need to do very little grinding at the bottom of the bores. I just use a die grinder and a black magic marker. I have some used bearings to install the crank, just need front and back. You can slip in two rods and pistons with no rings and mark the bottom of the cylinders, then simply measure the rest of the cylinders and mark them with the marker, using a dial caliper to check the depth. As mentioned, no water in the bottom of the bore so it is not super picky. If you don't have cleaning equipment, then I personally would do it before machine work. And I would blow and wash the block to remove as many grindings as possible before sending to machine shop just to be sure. Grinding leaves metal everywhere. I usually stuff shop towels in the cam bore area to try and keep dust out of there, just makes it easier to clean.

I like to put something in all the oil passageways including the ones that won't have any main bearings in place. Grinding cast iron is a mess like you mentioned.

 

[Black_Sheep]

Does it make a difference whether you use Mopar rods or Chevrolet rods? I assume that the 2.20 Chevy rod journal means less bulk on the big end and less grinding for clearance.

 

[beanhead]

I want to know the best/efficient way to remove material from the cylinders. Do it before or after the machine boring process? Can I cut them all the same depth after I do the first one? I'm getting confusing info from 440 source and my machinist's front office. "440 source" says that after the machinist bores the cylinders first and then I order the exact kit I need....

My 512 kit only needed a kiss on one cylinder and the oil pickup boss--but if you're using a machine shop, I'd say let them handle any fitting.

As far as the cylinder boring, ask the machinist to let you know what diameter the cylinders will clean up at BEFORE choosing your pistons. Like others have posted he shouldn't need to completely bore the block to be able to tell you this, unless maybe the bores are in bad shape to start with.

 

[rickseeman]

All you need is a die grinder and a carbide burr. When you get your stuff back from the machine shop mock it up and see where (if any) you need to grind. All of their 440/512 kits are Chevy rods so that helps. Might have to grind on the oil pickup boss. Might take a couple of minutes. Don't overthink it. Don't waste time grinding where it doesn't need it.

 

[BSB67]

No cylinder grinding on mine. Some grinding on the oil pick-up boss.

I mock mine up before. You can do it after too. I plan on making one return trip to the machine shop.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Does it make a difference whether you use Mopar rods or Chevrolet rods? I assume that the 2.20 Chevy rod journal means less bulk on the big end and less grinding for clearance.

Their is lot less grinding with a 2.20 journal. Our first 510 stroker used stock LY rods and a 4.25 stroke crank out of a top fuel car. That took more grinding then a 4.5" stroke with 2.20 h beam rods in a 542.

 

[davidplymouth1@]

My 512 kit only needed a kiss on one cylinder and the oil pickup boss--but if you're using a machine shop, I'd say let them handle any fitting.

View attachment 1913432

View attachment 1913433

As far as the cylinder boring, ask the machinist to let you know what diameter the cylinders will clean up at BEFORE choosing your pistons. Like others have posted he shouldn't need to completely bore the block to be able to tell you this, unless maybe the bores are in bad shape to start with.

Thanks sir. The machinist will only grind/remove the material for me if I pay him an extra $2500 to assemble the motor too. He does good work - but I gotta keep an eye on what he does. He once scratched/gouged up the new cam bearing he installed and said it would be ok anyway. I knocked em all out and re-did them myself. He once polished a crank too loose for one of the rod bearings. And said it would be ok. I felt 4 thousandths over max tolerance was too much. I had to take it down to San Bernadino to a different machinist and have it cut 10/10. He did refund the polishing fee to me and gave me new 10/10 bearings when I showed him the bill from the other machinst. The only other machinist left up here in the desert tried to steal my Pontiac 389 tri-power heads from me over 30 years ago. I took the heads in for a few things...valves/guides/studs, ect. and he switched heads on me. Nearly came to blows over that deal/scam but his son brought my heads out from behind his shop and apologized for the old saying the heads they gave would've been fine if I ran them. His son runs the business now, (and I hear hew does good work) but I never went back there again. The bores are rusty/ bad shape on this 440 here. probably wind up w/ .30 over but gonna wait and order after he does the bore then take a piston down to him let him hone and fit the pistons as usual. After everyone's input - I've decided to mark all the rods locations before machine shop, then after all machine is done - I'll block off as much as I can to stop debris getting into places that we don't want and check each rod fitment for clearance. Grind where I have to and then wash/brush it all out again before assembly. I was really hoping to just grind out like an 1/8" material at the bottom of each bore where the stock rods come close to the wall and then hit the pick up tube hole slightly like you did. I'm gonna have him hot tank it thoroughly clean at his shop anyway and thought that would be the end of it. But no one has really mentioned anything like that. and I don't know how much it will affect the strength of the block. I was hoping that someone would say that's how they did it and that it's no big deal to take that little bit off of the bottom of the bores. I really appreciate everyones input on this including you sir. The pics are a big help in relaxing me and bolstering my confidence to do this motor well.

 

[Kern Dog]

See how subtle the notches are?

It helps if you have rods like these:

They are a bit more compact at the big end.

 

[eldubb440]

He does good work - but I gotta keep an eye on what he does. He once scratched/gouged up the new cam bearing he installed and said it would be ok anyway. I knocked em all out and re-did them myself. He once polished a crank too loose for one of the rod bearings. And said it would be ok. I felt 4 thousandths over max tolerance was too much. I had to take it down to San Bernadino to a different machinist and have it cut 10/10.

I'd be exploring other options, it doesn't sound like he "gets it"

 

[davidplymouth1@]

See how subtle the notches are?

View attachment 1913843

View attachment 1913845

It helps if you have rods like these:

View attachment 1913846

They are a bit more compact at the big end.

Oh man, that's hardly nothing. I was expecting much more material to be removed. I mean, I understand that every block is different and it also depends on how long the stroke is. But yeah, it sounds like the 512 kit will be minimal grinding if any. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you bro. All I know about the rods provided in the kit is that they are "H" beam design and have a floating pin. they look the same - I think. Heh Heh

 

[davidplymouth1@]

I'd be exploring other options, it doesn't sound like he "gets it"

Excellent point. It would be at least 3 hours round trip for the other machinist who turned/fixed that crank for me, and it was PERFECT when I got it back. I've done a few motors with this same guy up here. Maybe 4-5 and only had those two problems on two different motors. LOL I mean yeah, they were big problems I thought. But he did make it right both times. He gave me the new cam bearings when I told him I was gonna knock em' out and re-do em' myself - and he repaid me for the crank I had turned. And he gave me a deal on something else the next time I did a motor there - like a free hot tank or something - I can't remember. He's probably got 8-10 guys under him and I guess some stuff gets past him. I actually think he's really sharp - it's his guys that slip up, I think. Maybe that stuff would've still worked like he said - but I didn't want to find out. I'm kinda picky I guess. I just gotta double check everything I get back from his shop. I feel good/confident this will be a good motor. Just gotta take my time w/it. Thanks man.

 

[dvw]

I find it hard to believe anyone could polish .001" from a crank. It would take forever.
Doug