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Smokin' Rear Brakes

I've got shoes coming from O'Reillys and they look correct in the on line picture but we shall see. The rear brake flex line is coming from NAPA on Monday. They did not have the 10" shoes. Also ordered the front brake flex hoses and they are coming from NAPAs warehouse. So I'm delayed on proceeding with work and updates. Further to follow.

I did think about Rock Auto but there is no one to talk to when ordering and one post related to this one said they tried the Bosch brand from them and they were not correct. I'm trying to not send product back and just get store credit. Besides that I'm in a mountain community and we have a package store but if you don't have a shipping label...bend over for the charges. Have a UPS store 40 miles from me. Not convenient but nice living here. Just wanted to explain my purchasing conditions. :BangHead:
 
A couple tiny bits of knowledge that may help, or may only confuse us all.... Some applications list the 10" drum shoes as round hole style or square hole style. Your pix seem to show the round hole style. Also, i know a while back i ended up with wrong springs on a 10" back drum job for the '64... i swear the incorrect application of those springs was 66 or 67 Charger, but fast forward to today ( from 4 years ago ?) and i can no longer find the definative info.....geezer brain mode...
Anyway, possibly it explains that your springs may be wrong? Or just maybe they are anchored incorrecly location wise due to a shoe difference?
Hopefully someone well versed will chime in and clarify the possibilities.
 
Just for clarification the manual shows the round hole style and the picture below it is my later model somewhat square hole style without the round hole to apply the shorter spring. That square hole style came into being later on. It will probably work on my car with the two long, new, springs but I thought as long as I was changing shoes, springs, and flex hose might as well try to keep it original. The FSM I'm using is from 1966.

One other update...When I put the drum back on tonight and pressed the brake pedal w/o starting the engine I did not get pressure causing a drag. But...after I started the car and the power booster came into play when I pressed the brake, the drum tightened up again and did not release the drag. Opened the bleed screw, the springs retracted and drag went away. So definitely holding pressure from the master cylinder or the flex line or all of the above. We are getting somewhere. Not fast but getting somewhere.
 
Looking at post #15, it all looks normal. If you had riveted shoes, you would be almost down to the rivet heads....
Bonded shoes are the way to go, that is all we used for 50+ yrs.

Check that your park brake cables/mechanism are releasing fully.
 
I did check the e-brake early on. Mainly because when I got the car a year ago the e-brake pedal needed a little lift with my toe to get it entirely in the up position. There was some rust on the mechanism so I pulled the kick panel and oiled that to the point it operates normally now. If that were the problem I think it would exist all the time. When the car sits overnight the pressure gradually releases until you use the brakes again. Checked it again during trouble shooting this and there is slack in the cable before engagement. The shoes I ordered are bonded lining but I have yet to lay eyes on them. Hoping they are correct. What is on the car probably would work okay as you mentioned especially with new springs but I'm concerned the lining is cooked and brittle now after all this overheating. Want to get the best braking possible so starting over.
 
After seeing Uncle Tony's video, I replaced my 55-year-old rear brake hose. The hose looked good from the outside. After cutting the hose in half, it was exactly like Tony displayed. REPLACE the old hoses.
 
My thoughts are parking brake CABLE as well especially if, as you mentioned, you had to manually lift the pedal.

Disconnect the cable at the tie bar under the floorpan then pull the cable where it connects to the lever inside the drum.

Does it move easily? If not, lubricate or replace the cable.

Sometimes you can remove the cable and clamp the housing in a vise and move the cable inside back and forth with the aid of a good penetrating oil (Kroil or 50/50 mixture of acetone and Marvel Mystery oil) and free it up.

Once you have the cable moving, suspend the cable, then pull the housing as far down as possible and oil the exposed cable.
Slide the housing up and down then invert the cable and repeat the operation.

I did this years ago on my 318 4-speed '77 Volare wagon when both cables were dragging when I bought it.
I drove it for another 4 years and just shy of another 200,000 miles and they never acted up. The front frame horn rusted out before they even gave a hint of failure.

I always parked the car in neutral (so that the trans wouldn't take a hit if someone hit the car in a parking lot and chipped a gear tooth) and the constant use of the cable kept it operational.

I do the same with my GTX and have done so since 1968. It also allows me to start the car without having to push in the clutch pedal and force a dry crankshaft against a dry thrust bearing. Before I bought my GTX, I lost a crank in my '56 Chev wagon (bored 283 with a T-10) because thrust bearing got tired from starting the engine with my foot on the 12-spring Borg & Beck pressure plate and, ever since then, I use the parking brake and leave the trans in neutral.

Parking brake cables DON'T like to be left unused.
 
The hoses are on order and will be replaced. As for the parking brake it does not hang up now after oiling. It was not the cable. It was the mechanism under the dash. I almost never use it. On any vehicle I have. So yes, they could get stubborn not being used. I also appreciate the method to oil it. This cable could probably use that since the car spent some 15 years in Chicago, out of CA where it was born and used for about 40 years. While I have everything apart, why wouldn't you? In my case it would be " I didn't thunk 'bout that. So good reminder.

Your method of parking in neutral is interesting and really makes sense on the 4-spd. Mine is an auto and leaks down pretty quick after parking for a couple days. Have to put it in neutral and wait a few seconds to get oil pumped in all the right places. Pretty typical MOPAR 727 and not too much of a nuisance because I know it's going to happen. My 2004.5 Dodge diesel truck with the auto trans is beginning to doing it now.

Really great comments on this issue and I hope it helps someone else too. Pretty sure when I get to the front brakes and M/C issue I will have this Charger stopping on a dime. Well, maybe a little more money than that.
 
Put the new shoes, springs, nail kit and a rear brake line on today. Parts from NAPA and O'Reilly are from China. The brake shoes are correct but....I had to drill out the holes for the e-brake lever and the nails which would not go through. One size drill different so it's probably a metric drill thing they used to get it close. The rear hose was okay for length and fittings but I had to loop it about four inches from the tail pipe as it would kink a little if I tried to loop it straight off the feed brake line. Maybe a couple inches different. The brake hose is thinner than stock but the I.D. looked the same. Correct length.

Bled the brakes and still have the dragging issue so I will go to the master cylinder. Probably the issue. I did note that the new springs did have more tension than the old ones but that did not pull the shoes back in without releasing fluid from the wheel cylinders. It was a real PIA getting the shoes on due in part I believe that the M/C is not allowing fluid to go back into the chamber. On drum brakes I have never had to relieve pressure at the wheel cylinder before now. Further to follow.
 
The springs not being able to pull the shoes up against the stop without releasing fluid from the wheel cylinder is a pretty clear sign your master cylinder piston is not retracting enough to expose the compensating port on the rear brake bowl. I’ve done more drum brake work in the last 6 months than in the rest of my life and typically as I hook a shoe spring up, the shoe will pull up against the stop in a second or two as fluid is forced from the wheel cylinder and back to the MC bowl. Good luck.
 
I could use some luck with this car. Overcoming the mistakes others made over the years has been daunting. I noticed yesterday that the pass rear wheel bearing sounds a little noisy when turning the axle. Kinda like I can hear/feel the bearing slightly. Don't hear or feel that on the driver side. So I may be back in here before long to pull an axle. Don't hear anything when driving...yet...

Getting smiles and compliments on the car can soothe some of the aches and pains however as I age it's getting harder to do this work. My understanding wife helped yesterday lending a third hand (and foot to bleed the brakes) to mount the shoes.
 
Mariposa Mike said:
I could use some luck with this car. Overcoming the mistakes others made over the years has been daunting. I noticed yesterday that the pass rear wheel bearing sounds a little noisy when turning the axle. Kinda like I can hear/feel the bearing slightly. Don't hear or feel that on the driver side.
Click to expand...
 
Got the M/C off and have a couple questions if anyone is still watching this thread. There was pressure against the back of the M/C when I was loosening it. Seems I recall someone posting that before you do this you should press the brake a few times to relieve the boost. But the pressure may be the problem I am having. There is an adjustable rod but it is very loose in the booster and I'm fearful of pulling it out since there is a seal on it as well that moves with it. Looked in the SM and it appears the rod is not connected to anything so being loose might be okay. But to adjust it could be an issue unless I can grab it with a pair of vice grips. The SM gives a measurement for a single M/C but would that be the same for a dual as I have. Also I believe it was mentioned that when changing to a dual the rod will have to be shortened. There are only a few threads exposed so it would not be much.

So should I NOT pull that rod out of the booster? I still need to determine what measurement I need by working the M/C piston and exposing the compensation section. Anyone know more?
 
I did a complicated measurement using my dial calipers. There is a tool you can buy as others have mentioned, off Amazon. Under "master cylinder tool". Looks like an H. Gets you there much faster. My belief is that over time, with supersessions/consolodations etc, that manufactures go for the one size fits all category on M/C pistons. Where we used to be able to just bolt on a replacement and go, now we have to make adjustments. Another case in point, Ball Joints needing washers under the castle nut so the slot lines up with the hole in the stud. Didn't happen before. Commonplace now.
 
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I was also curious if the brake lines off the M/C need a loop in them. Mine go straight down to the original lines. But I have seen a lot of aftermarket and newer models that have the loop. There must be a reason.

I see the H tool (I think) in the SM. Says it measures a distance of .945 or something like that. But that is for the single M/C so I don't know if works the same on a double.
 
.945 is a little much to me. I'd for for 020-080, maybe .125 tops. Others will chime in on their thoughts.
 
I have a warranty repair this morning for my RAM truck but later today I plan to examine the M/C for travel distance to expose the compensating holes, if that is the correct term. That should get me the travel distance to know where the rod should be. But I'm still in the woods trying to figure out the way to deal with the rod. When I pull out on it seems to fall out of a slot and then plug? back in. Not what the book shows but it may just be the alignment. I'm still wary of trying to pull it all the way out. Hoping for some tech advice by then. Or maybe calling one of the brake venders who support this forum for advice.
 
Okay. Another update and another screw up on my part. The brake lines DO have loops in them. They were outta sight below the M/C and I missed that.

Drained the M/C and measured the depth of the piston and the reach of the rod. The rod is 1/16" shorter so it's not interfering unless when the power boost is active it keeps the rod out. The booster does not look like it was ever replaced. But it does provide power boost.

One more surprise. The bottom of the front reservoir was cruddy with debris and appears to have corroded a bit. Maybe water in the Dot 5 fluid caused this or maybe the Dot 5 has a life span that was exceeded. The one for the rears was fine but as I stated before there was crud in the old rear wheel cylinders and some in the lines. So now I am going to have to check the front brake cylinders. The front brakes seemed to have been working okay.

The M/C has two holes in each chamber. One (rear hole) pushes the fluid up and the other has a small pinhole which I believe might be the compensating portion. But I cannot figure out if all this is working as it should. The next thing is to put a little clean fluid in the chambers and observe the action when the piston is moved. Before removing the M/C I observed little geysers coming up when pressing the pedal but I don't know which port they were coming from. Further to follow as I go along but about to run out of ideas if the piston operates a designed. Taking a coffee break right now.

It's hot here today and probably the rest of the summer. Just bought a shop water cooler and that really helps.
 
Is the M/C you're dealing with the one that came on the car when you bought it? If so, maybe the PO installed the wrong unit? Or its defective?
 
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