18 spline procured (finally!) Need a little advice...

[moparedtn]

Ladies and gents (and the rest of yas):
I've finally located an honest to God 18 spline A833 4 speed, apparently a '68 unit according to the numbers. It's fresh out of the transmission builders' shop and has had pretty much everything replaced supposedly.
Too much $$$, but oh well...

I've lined up a fellow who builds Mopars for folks and has a few of his own (including a '69 Charger R/T that is seriously nice, all the way up to the blower sitting on top of the 572 hemi!)
that has a two lift shop to do the actual transmission swapping for me.
That will include indexing the bellhousing.

Reminder: I have a '72 block 440, a '68 factory 11" big bearing cast (heavy!) bellhousing and currently a Centerforce Dual Friction clutch setup with less than 500 miles on it, along with an old worn-assed 23 spline of unknown origin from the early 70's (dual pattern on the tailshaft housing).

Question #1:
I need to fetch him some offset dowels obviously and figured I'd get a pair of each of the three sizes, then send back whatever ones he doesn't wind up needing.
Are these dowels the 0.5" diameter ones I see referenced on Summit's site?

Question #2:
As some of you may remember, I'm not particularly fond of the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, especially in stop and go traffic (like parades, for example). I've gotten over the whole pedal position thing, but that thing is really an on-off switch sort of clutch and if you ride it any (like in traffic), it gets hot in a hurry!
The gentleman doing this work for me has a brand new McLeod disc of a more organic composition and I was thinking of just putting it in there instead of mine.
Will that work ok with the Centerforce pressure plate?

Question #3:
I'm going to pick up the "new" rebuilt transmission in the morning. I don't know really what to check when I do. I mean, short of pulling the side cover off there in the parking lot, is there anything much I can do to "inspect" the thing prior to forking over the loot?

Thanks!!
Ed

 

[vintage chromoly]

Mopar dowels are smaller than .500. I believe .496.

I have a McLeod clutch. Id get the better disc than the organic one. I believe the organic disc is for a fairly mild application.
That said, the disc will work with the pressure plate and flywheel.

You can pull the side cover and see if it looks like the trans has been rebuilt or is well used.
Look at the seals and whatnot and see it it appears that it’s really been rebuilt of the guy is full of it.

 

[moparedtn]

Mopar dowels are smaller than .500. I believe .496.
I have a McLeod clutch. Id get the better disc than the organic one. I believe the organic disc is for a fairly mild application.
That said, the disc will work with the pressure plate and flywheel.
You can pull the side cover and see if it looks like the trans has been rebuilt or is well used.
Look at the seals and whatnot and see it it appears that it’s really been rebuilt of the guy is full of it.

Thanks. I actually spent an hour on the phone the other night with the gentleman purported to have been
the builder of the transmission. I got a good feeling out of it; he took a lot of time to describe what all he had
done to it and how hard it had been to get the "right parts".

Eh, we'll see what the mechanic actually has from McLeod. I found out last night they don't even make a B&B
11" pressure plate anymore?!? That was surprising. Neither does Zoom apparently.

 

[gkent]

Have the guy dial in the bell and determine which dowels he needs. Its just possible you don't need any other than stock straight ones.

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

I don't recall,what is the application?That stock bell can drag you to the bottom of the ocean

 

[moparedtn]

Have the guy dial in the bell and determine which dowels he needs. Its just possible you don't need any other than stock straight ones.

If dowels were available locally then sure, that's the play. They aren't. Heck, I've spent considerable time trying to find offset dowel pins online and have come up empty, other than some shown on: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/dowels.html
Dan Brewer shows some as well, although the listing is sort of confusing and doesn't actually indicate outside diameter:
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.php?prod=DP-OFFSET
Mopars are 0.496, yet Lakewood et al show the .500 Ford ones as applicable for ours as well.
Even I know better than that. Hello, BFH!

Good question for the laymen: If you don't have equipment to test bellhousing offset, what are the tell-tale signs there's a problem? I know it's a bit of a wrestling match to get the existing transmission in place now, for example.

 

[moparedtn]

I don't recall,what is the application?That stock bell can drag you to the bottom of the ocean

"Application"? What, do you work at Advance Auto or something?
I'll quote myself from my original post:
"Reminder: I have a '72 block 440, a '68 factory 11" big bearing cast (heavy!) bellhousing..."
If it matters, the car in question is my 1968 GTX as always.
Bellhousing is an original factory part 2892262 like this one:
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.php?prod=BH262

Yes, it could probably be used for a boat anchor.

 

[hunt2elk]

I have a CenterForce dual friction 10.5" in my Duster and just love it. Because of that, I put a 11" model in my Charger R/T with a 18 spline tranny and it just sucked. It was so bad that my wife couldn't even drive it. Don't know if it has something to do with the bigger 18 spline model or not which seems to be the standard for trucks. I ended up pulling it out and sending it back to CenterForce. They checked the spring rate and said it was within specs. They did give me another style disc that they thought would help. Put it all back together and it still sucked. Like you said, it was either on or off, and the pressure on the pedal was just to much - almost dangerous if you weren't really paying attention. Sold the car so I don't have to deal with it again. My current project has a 23 spline 11" and I don't think I will put one in there. Brewers is recommending a McLeod clutch over the more expensive CenterForce, so I may try that.

 

[vintage chromoly]

I used a McLeod in my 440/18 spline, 11” application.
I used the “pro” disc (dual friction type similar to centerforce) it was for applications up to around 550 HP, if I remember correctly.
It’s a diaphragm pressure plate design.

I used the robbmc dowels. Don’t hammer a .500 ford dowel in the block as you risk cracking the block. Not a good thing.

You really need a dial indicator and fixture to check runout.

I used a hays SFI flywheel asbit was only 200 bucks and I like my feet.

Final thought:
Take the time and spend the 100 bucks or so and have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced. Assuming they are neutral can be an gamble.
My flywheel was off a bit and the “neural balanced” McLeod pressure plate was WAY off!

 

[moparedtn]

Brewers is recommending a McLeod clutch over the more expensive CenterForce, so I may try that.

I found it sort of shocking that McLeod only offers diaphragm type clutches now in the 18 spline/11".
I suppose their pressure plate would be similar to the Centerforce, short of the CF's centrifugal weights?
I dunno, I just want that CF disc out of mine.

 

[moparedtn]

I used a McLeod in my 440/18 spline, 11” application.
I used the “pro” disc (dual friction type similar to centerforce) it was for applications up to around 550 HP, if I remember correctly.
It’s a diaphragm pressure plate design.
I used the robbmc dowels. Don’t hammer a .500 ford dowel in the block as you risk cracking the block. Not a good thing.
You really need a dial indicator and fixture to check runout.
I used a hays SFI flywheel as it was only 200 bucks and I like my feet.
Final thought:
Take the time and spend the 100 bucks or so and have the flywheel and pressure plate balanced. Assuming they are neutral can be an gamble.
My flywheel was off a bit and the “neural balanced” McLeod pressure plate was WAY off!
View attachment 738122 View attachment 738123 View attachment 738124

Yep, definitely on the indexing - at least checking it.
My flywheel is a factory heavy-assed unit as resurfaced by Brewer's.
If the mechanic has the resources available, I'll ask about balancing. Thanks!

 

[vintage chromoly]

I can say that the McLeod has a great pedal feel and good engagement. I’d recommend it 100%

 

[gkent]

If dowels were available locally then sure, that's the play. They aren't. Heck, I've spent considerable time trying to find offset dowel pins online and have come up empty, other than some shown on: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/products/dowels.html
Dan Brewer shows some as well, although the listing is sort of confusing and doesn't actually indicate outside diameter:
http://www.brewersperformance.com/proddetail.php?prod=DP-OFFSET
Mopars are 0.496, yet Lakewood et al show the .500 Ford ones as applicable for ours as well.
Even I know better than that. Hello, BFH!

Brewers should have been the first place you looked. What do you find confusing ... he only deals in Mopar so the stuff he sells is gonna work. What "outside diameter" are you talking about ??

 

[gkent]

I have a CenterForce dual friction 10.5" in my Duster and just love it. Because of that, I put a 11" model in my Charger R/T with a 18 spline tranny and it just sucked. It was so bad that my wife couldn't even drive it. Don't know if it has something to do with the bigger 18 spline model or not which seems to be the standard for trucks.

A) whatever the issue, it was not because of the 18 spline B) they never put 18 spline in trucks - if they had they wouldn't be so hard to find and expensive.

Are you guys remembering to take out the over top spring when you use the diaphram clutch ?!?!

 

[Cojohnso1]

I have a CenterForce dual friction 10.5" in my Duster and just love it. Because of that, I put a 11" model in my Charger R/T with a 18 spline tranny and it just sucked. It was so bad that my wife couldn't even drive it. Don't know if it has something to do with the bigger 18 spline model or not which seems to be the standard for trucks. I ended up pulling it out and sending it back to CenterForce. They checked the spring rate and said it was within specs. They did give me another style disc that they thought would help. Put it all back together and it still sucked. Like you said, it was either on or off, and the pressure on the pedal was just to much - almost dangerous if you weren't really paying attention. Sold the car so I don't have to deal with it again. My current project has a 23 spline 11" and I don't think I will put one in there. Brewers is recommending a McLeod clutch over the more expensive CenterForce, so I may try that.

I have an 11" Centerforce clutch to a 23 spline and it works well. My 440 is only built to about 450 horse. So a bit of a cost over kill. But the GTX seems happy. An 18 spline may have different pedal reaction to a big pressure plate? I can't see why? But I've seen many things that shouldn't make any difference, but does?

 

[hunt2elk]

I found it sort of shocking that McLeod only offers diaphragm type clutches now in the 18 spline/11".
I suppose their pressure plate would be similar to the Centerforce, short of the CF's centrifugal weights?
I dunno, I just want that CF disc out of mine.

I took out a McLead borg and beck from the Charger and replaced it with the CenterForce diaphragm. It had about 2000 miles on it and I should have left it in the car. Ill never use it as all my cars are 23 spline now. Ill make you a good deal on it if you want to try it. It is their 75240 Super Street Pro.

 

[hunt2elk]

A) whatever the issue, it was not because of the 18 spline B) they never put 18 spline in trucks - if they had they wouldn't be so hard to find and expensive.

Are you guys remembering to take out the over top spring when you use the diaphram clutch ?!?!

Had the spring out. Here is a link showing that the Centerforce dual friction DF071800 fits in Dakotas and Ramchargers. I called Centerforce at the time and was told this is the only dual friction clutch they make in a 18 spline. Reason I called them was the place I bought mine from on the internet listed it as fitting trucks only.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-Dodge-...798237&hash=item41f1af4f74:g:OqcAAOSwJuZb0aMb

 

[moparedtn]

Brewers should have been the first place you looked. What do you find confusing ... he only deals in Mopar so the stuff he sells is gonna work. What "outside diameter" are you talking about ??

I speak with Dan fairly regularly; he's been a tremendous help in the past. I'd be fetching the transmission from him now if he wasn't 3 months lead time. Suffice to say, I know about him and trust him, thanks.
I only stated his website doesn't actually state their offset dowels are .496. No big confusion.

 

[moparedtn]

Are you guys remembering to take out the over top spring when you use the diaphram clutch ?!?!

First thing you do when going to a diaphragm clutch, yes.

 

[moparedtn]

It has been fetched: