Yes i did and it currently only reads 15". From what i've been told 17-18" would be normal.
2806178 Intake Manifold Replacement - What Date Code do I need?
- Thread starter Michael_
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Yes i did and it currently only reads 15". From what i've been told 17-18" would be normal.
66 Sat
Well-Known Member
I don't think 15" is an issue on an old engine if the needle is steady and the car idles and drives ok.
Have you tried spraying carb cleaner on the sides of the manifold where you believe it is leaking? Do it while the engine is running obviously - if the idle rpm increases then you have a leak.
Have you tried spraying carb cleaner on the sides of the manifold where you believe it is leaking? Do it while the engine is running obviously - if the idle rpm increases then you have a leak.
I think we found the problem today.
Just take a look at the fitment of this NOS vs. New "Made in the USA" Fel-Pro Gasket:
More (Detailed) Pictures: Album — Postimages
Not only is the fitment of the new fel-pro gasket really POOR, its also noticeably lighter and thinner.
In the next few days we will take a look at the old manifold and decide weather we will reuse that or go with the new one
but looking at those gaskets i think this is probably the issue.
It's really a shame that you cannot even buy a simple metal gasket as a repro part these days.
If things continue to go this way nobody will be driving these cars in the not so distant future due to not being able to get parts that work!
One question:
The guy that helps me with this (retired mechanic) wonders if he should put any RTV at all or just put the NOS gasket in DRY?
I think the factory did NOT use any type of sealer - just the blank gasket - right?
Just take a look at the fitment of this NOS vs. New "Made in the USA" Fel-Pro Gasket:
More (Detailed) Pictures: Album — Postimages
Not only is the fitment of the new fel-pro gasket really POOR, its also noticeably lighter and thinner.
In the next few days we will take a look at the old manifold and decide weather we will reuse that or go with the new one
but looking at those gaskets i think this is probably the issue.
It's really a shame that you cannot even buy a simple metal gasket as a repro part these days.
If things continue to go this way nobody will be driving these cars in the not so distant future due to not being able to get parts that work!
One question:
The guy that helps me with this (retired mechanic) wonders if he should put any RTV at all or just put the NOS gasket in DRY?
I think the factory did NOT use any type of sealer - just the blank gasket - right?
66 Sat
Well-Known Member
So you're saying the retired mechanic didn't notice this the FIRST time you installed the manifold...and then blamed the manifold for being warped? So it isn't warped after all?
Is this a new gasket or are you re-using the gasket from last time (you could if it's only got 20 minutes run time on it)? I'm confused as to how many gaskets you have.
Regardless, that gasket looks like it can be shaped to fit the bolt holes, if not, just open the bolt holes up a bit (on the gasket obviously). Stick some bolts in one side of the manifold while it's upside down, press on the gasket and see how far the holes are off on the other side - you may find that they line up.
If you're referring to the ports - they never match anyway - that's why you port match an intake. Look how rough the openings are from the factory, the gasket always allows for this.
With regards to RTV - just use what you need to get the manifold to seal - don't get hung up on what the factory did and what your "survivor" car might like. If the gasket fits poorly then a light skim of RTV is fine or add the paper gaskets as suggested by others many times previously.
Be thankful it's not a small block with coolant passages to seal up as well - you're head would really be spinning.
Is this a new gasket or are you re-using the gasket from last time (you could if it's only got 20 minutes run time on it)? I'm confused as to how many gaskets you have.
Regardless, that gasket looks like it can be shaped to fit the bolt holes, if not, just open the bolt holes up a bit (on the gasket obviously). Stick some bolts in one side of the manifold while it's upside down, press on the gasket and see how far the holes are off on the other side - you may find that they line up.
If you're referring to the ports - they never match anyway - that's why you port match an intake. Look how rough the openings are from the factory, the gasket always allows for this.
With regards to RTV - just use what you need to get the manifold to seal - don't get hung up on what the factory did and what your "survivor" car might like. If the gasket fits poorly then a light skim of RTV is fine or add the paper gaskets as suggested by others many times previously.
Be thankful it's not a small block with coolant passages to seal up as well - you're head would really be spinning.
Well we noticed it but we assumed the poor fit was normal and tried to make the best out of it.
I still don't know if the old manifold is warped or not. But i hopefully will within a couple days...
I originally ordered 2 gaskets from 2 different companies but ended up getting 2 similar (fel-pro) ones from rockauto.
After the failed attempt to seal the intake manifold i ordered this NOS gasket. I will not be reusing the old valley pan gasket.
Of course it can be "massaged" for a better fitment, that's what we did on the first attempt. But this gasket is still a JOKE compared to the NOS gasket. As i said also in thickness and weight.
66 Sat
Well-Known Member
Isn't it upside down on the workbench right now - for you to take all those photos that don't really show anything? Can't you simply put a straightedge on it - or are you waiting for a NOS straightedge to come from the US to be able to check?
There's more drama than Shakespeare here.
Bolt the gasket to the block with the end rails and leave it a tad loose and line up the ports and intake bolt holes on each head. This will tell you if it lines up or not. Before the intake goes on.
So today we finally re-did the job.
Car is back together, now we let it sit overnight for the RTV to cure and then tomorrow we will see if this time was a success or not.
For all the people that think we are to stupid to change a gasket here are a couple pictures what
the intake manifold looked like when we pulled it back out with the fel-pro gasket still attached.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i think you cannot do this any better: Album — Postimages
But once you detach the gasket from the manifold you see that it instantly goes back into its original form despite it has
been installed for at least a month by now: https://i.postimg.cc/bdXFyQT1/10-F31237-D47-B-4202-86-C4-3-C4-B3-A8-D09-CD.jpg
IMO those fel-pro gaskets are JUNK.
We checked the manifold for warpage with a straight edge + flash light and to be honest it does look good, we cannot find any signs of warpage or other damage.
Despite this we still went with the new manifold because for one the discoloration is somewhat uneven, a lot more in the center (below the carb) which i tend to believe is normal? BUT also we
are not a machine shop and that NOS gasket cost 150$ so i didn't want to risk wasting that money.
See pictures:
postimg.cc
postimg.cc
Here are even more pictures where you can see the cylinder head mounting surfaces etc.:
postimg.cc
Album — Postimages (NOS Valley Pan Gasket install with RTV)
IMO everything looks very nice despite 95k miles on the engine.
If it's not leaking anymore then IMO the issue was that crappy fel-pro gasket.
Car is back together, now we let it sit overnight for the RTV to cure and then tomorrow we will see if this time was a success or not.
For all the people that think we are to stupid to change a gasket here are a couple pictures what
the intake manifold looked like when we pulled it back out with the fel-pro gasket still attached.
Correct me if i'm wrong but i think you cannot do this any better: Album — Postimages
But once you detach the gasket from the manifold you see that it instantly goes back into its original form despite it has
been installed for at least a month by now: https://i.postimg.cc/bdXFyQT1/10-F31237-D47-B-4202-86-C4-3-C4-B3-A8-D09-CD.jpg
IMO those fel-pro gaskets are JUNK.
We checked the manifold for warpage with a straight edge + flash light and to be honest it does look good, we cannot find any signs of warpage or other damage.
Despite this we still went with the new manifold because for one the discoloration is somewhat uneven, a lot more in the center (below the carb) which i tend to believe is normal? BUT also we
are not a machine shop and that NOS gasket cost 150$ so i didn't want to risk wasting that money.
See pictures:
Album — Postimages
Album — Postimages
Here are even more pictures where you can see the cylinder head mounting surfaces etc.:
Album — Postimages
IMO everything looks very nice despite 95k miles on the engine.
If it's not leaking anymore then IMO the issue was that crappy fel-pro gasket.
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Hope it works out well for ya.
Today i'm in the mood to sink the car into a lake... 
Started it up cold and it idled BEAUTIFULLY and was definitely not leaking anymore.
But just about 30 miles later it AGAIN started to leak...
We then re-tightened the intake manifold bolts even a little bit tighter than what the factory recommends (not much) which again stopped the leak temporarily but again 30 miles later it started leaking again.
I'm in a bad mood right now...
I mean you guys saw what we did:
www.forbbodiesonly.com
New Stock Manifold, New NOS Valley Pan, Plenty RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) yet it still fricking leaks.
I can almost kill the engine if i spray enough carb cleaner along the left and right sides of the manifold.
I did a little bit more research and apparently using RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) on the Valley Pan is a bad idea? From what i've read now you should only put a little RTV on the china walls and otherwise put this in dry.
Apparently that is what the factory did? But then i've seen a guy on youtube that used RTV on the ports and everything and said he never had any problems. But this guy was also using Aluminum Heads and Intake Manifold.
Yeah i don't know.
Is it the RTV?
Do i have 2 Warped Heads?
Do i have 2 Warped Intake Manifolds?
What ya'll think?
Started it up cold and it idled BEAUTIFULLY and was definitely not leaking anymore.
But just about 30 miles later it AGAIN started to leak...
We then re-tightened the intake manifold bolts even a little bit tighter than what the factory recommends (not much) which again stopped the leak temporarily but again 30 miles later it started leaking again.
I'm in a bad mood right now...
I mean you guys saw what we did:
2806178 Intake Manifold Replacement - What Date Code do I need?
Michael, you bought a vacuum gauge recently, right? Have you hooked it up yet - that should clearly show if your intake isn't sealing. Yes i did and it currently only reads 15". From what i've been told 17-18" would be normal.
www.forbbodiesonly.com
New Stock Manifold, New NOS Valley Pan, Plenty RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) yet it still fricking leaks.
I can almost kill the engine if i spray enough carb cleaner along the left and right sides of the manifold.
I did a little bit more research and apparently using RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) on the Valley Pan is a bad idea? From what i've read now you should only put a little RTV on the china walls and otherwise put this in dry.
Apparently that is what the factory did? But then i've seen a guy on youtube that used RTV on the ports and everything and said he never had any problems. But this guy was also using Aluminum Heads and Intake Manifold.
Yeah i don't know.
Is it the RTV?
Do i have 2 Warped Heads?
Do i have 2 Warped Intake Manifolds?
What ya'll think?
No time for me to back read. Have the heads ever been planed? (machined) If so, depending on how much they milled off, the intake surfaces will not match the intake surface angles.Today i'm in the mood to sink the car into a lake...
Started it up cold and it idled BEAUTIFULLY and was definitely not leaking anymore.
But just about 30 miles later it AGAIN started to leak...
We then re-tightened the intake manifold bolts even a little bit tighter than what the factory recommends (not much) which again stopped the leak temporarily but again 30 miles later it started leaking again.
I'm in a bad mood right now...
I mean you guys saw what we did:
2806178 Intake Manifold Replacement - What Date Code do I need?
Michael, you bought a vacuum gauge recently, right? Have you hooked it up yet - that should clearly show if your intake isn't sealing. Yes i did and it currently only reads 15". From what i've been told 17-18" would be normal.
New Stock Manifold, New NOS Valley Pan, Plenty RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) yet it still fricking leaks.
I can almost kill the engine if i spray enough carb cleaner along the left and right sides of the manifold.
I did a little bit more research and apparently using RTV (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress) on the Valley Pan is a bad idea? From what i've read now you should only put a little RTV on the china walls and otherwise put this in dry.
Apparently that is what the factory did? But then i've seen a guy on youtube that used RTV on the ports and everything and said he never had any problems. But this guy was also using Aluminum Heads and Intake Manifold.
Yeah i don't know.
Is it the RTV?
Do i have 2 Warped Heads?
Do i have 2 Warped Intake Manifolds?
What ya'll think?
I don't know that. It would surprise me but at this point also not that much.
But what do you do in this case i mean taking something off the manifold just makes this worse i assume?
The case against this is that i own the car for 5 years now and while i have not been driving nearly as much as i wanted because of unplanned personal stuff happening i have surely put at least 500 miles on the car before it started leaking.
Also the old valley pan gasket looked like it has been in there for a long time. Though while i don't know for sure i think it was not the first/original one.
At this point my plan is to wait and see if someone has a great idea and if not i will probably get another NOS valley pan gasket and do this a third time just without RTV and also checking the Head Mounting surface with a straight edge too.
If this won't fix it i guess i have to take the car to an engine builder / professional shop.
Did you try putting the manifold on clean and dry mock up no gasket. That's the first step. So you can see what your up against for fitment. Once that passes the test, then the actual " sealing" with a proper sealant, and proper clamping force should do the rest.
It has to be torqued down solid to crush the sealing beads. For years I've been using the ultra black permatex with zero failures. Even though most silicones aren't recommended around gas.
Seal-All would work 100% I'm sure
But never tried it.
It has to be torqued down solid to crush the sealing beads. For years I've been using the ultra black permatex with zero failures. Even though most silicones aren't recommended around gas.
Seal-All would work 100% I'm sure
But never tried it.
No. How would i know the fitment is correct?
Also in your Picture there is no RTV on the china wall portion of the valley pan. Don't you use RTV there or did you put it on after taking the picture?
A key part is good vision. You have to be able to see well exactly what you're looking at. Eyes go bad with age.
You're checking for mating flatness at all 4 corners. You're looking at the bolt hole alignments. You're rocking the manifold corner to opposite corner in efforts of seeing if it's not mating squarely. You're seeing if there's a few thousandths of an inch clearance on any lower corner holes. Basically seeing how it fits without just blindly throwing it on. I'm sure it fine. I looked at the pics of it on the bench, all looked good. Even crush around the beads. Silicone a little heavy, but ok.
Another trick may have been mentioned, once the gasket is bolted down with the end rails, give the corner junction a love tap with a somewhat blunt flat chisel to set the gasket to the angle . They're always bent poorly. Another thing is make sure the end rails have the chamfered ends up so as not to interfere with manifold. Also , as an endgame, after you've torqued the manifold down, you can loosen off one side, and retorque. Then the other. So the bolts aren't binding.
Yes I used RTV on the endrails.
I did some more research and it almost looks like that the type of "RTV" that we used is NOT suitable for this application (Elring Dirko HT ProfiPress).
I will order another NOS valley pan gasket and once its back apart i will check the cylinder head mounting surfaces with a straight edge.
I will then testfit the intake manifold on the engine WITHOUT the valley pan gasket like @RemCharger described.
If i cannot find anything wrong i think i will put the valley pan in WITHOUT any RTV this time around except for the china walls and hope for the best. (They old gasket also didn't have any RTV on it)
If this doesn't fix it i think i need a professional engine builder to look at this.
I will order another NOS valley pan gasket and once its back apart i will check the cylinder head mounting surfaces with a straight edge.
I will then testfit the intake manifold on the engine WITHOUT the valley pan gasket like @RemCharger described.
If i cannot find anything wrong i think i will put the valley pan in WITHOUT any RTV this time around except for the china walls and hope for the best. (They old gasket also didn't have any RTV on it)
If this doesn't fix it i think i need a professional engine builder to look at this.
66 Sat
Well-Known Member
If you're ordering 1 NOS gasket then I would order 2.
The shipping will be the same and at least you have another one there ready to go should this operation be unsuccessful a third time.
Should you be unsuccessful again, before you take it to a professional, maybe seek out some fellow Mopar (or Chevy, Ford etc) guys in Germany who can come over and fit it for you.
No disrespect to the retired Opel mechanic, but dry fitting the intake, checking everything for straightness etc is mechanics 101, especially after the first failure.
The shipping will be the same and at least you have another one there ready to go should this operation be unsuccessful a third time.
Should you be unsuccessful again, before you take it to a professional, maybe seek out some fellow Mopar (or Chevy, Ford etc) guys in Germany who can come over and fit it for you.
No disrespect to the retired Opel mechanic, but dry fitting the intake, checking everything for straightness etc is mechanics 101, especially after the first failure.
Last edited:
I agree with trying to dry fit the manifold and see if there are issues. I suggest to lay the manifold on dry as shown in the picture below.
With it offset, you can then insert feeler gauges to check it. Both sides should be parallel and laying flat against the heads. If, for example, the manifold touches on the top of the heads, but not the bottom, measure the gap. It really should be no more than about .004" for a good seal. If you have an issue here you must correct it. The "right way" is to mill the heads, but you can mill the intake manifold too. The only issue with that is you will then make the intake a custom fit for your engine.
If this first test works well, then align the intake manifold dry and without gaskets in its proper location. Take a look and see how far the head bolt holes are offset from the intake manifold holes. Let this offset dictate if you use additional gaskets.
I also recommend Gaskacinch over RTV.
Good luck
With it offset, you can then insert feeler gauges to check it. Both sides should be parallel and laying flat against the heads. If, for example, the manifold touches on the top of the heads, but not the bottom, measure the gap. It really should be no more than about .004" for a good seal. If you have an issue here you must correct it. The "right way" is to mill the heads, but you can mill the intake manifold too. The only issue with that is you will then make the intake a custom fit for your engine.
If this first test works well, then align the intake manifold dry and without gaskets in its proper location. Take a look and see how far the head bolt holes are offset from the intake manifold holes. Let this offset dictate if you use additional gaskets.
I also recommend Gaskacinch over RTV.
Good luck
Last edited:
oldbee
Well-Known Member
The one thing only slightly touched on is to lay the pan on dry. It will not sit on the heads perfectly, the crease at lower bottom of heads always needs bent a little bit more to sit good. Snug up the China wall bolts will help a little(everything dry,no sealer)and when it all looks good then take apart and seal everything. My current intake has RTV across the china walls and gasgacinch on the heads. No paper used and probably 20k miles on it. Torque in the proper sequence. Good luck.
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