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440 ILDING AFTER 42 YEARS! Engine Troubleshooting

Isaiah Estrada

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Location
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A few weeks back, I had been questioning the way my fresh 440 was running. This is my first engine build, so I don't know much - but I could still tell it was running pretty rough. Any adjustments I tried making just made it really upset and so I decided to just let it run for the sake of the cam… Still, I knew there were problems that needed to be addressed!!

For one, it was running RICH. I mean, it burned my eyes real bad to even be near that engine. Super hard to breathe (not good I know…) Also, my timing seemed to be REALLY off. It wouldn't stay and idle at a low RPM either. It's been a little busy for me lately, so I haven't been able to go back to the car until this week! I could finally address any issues that I've been having.

To begin my troubleshooting, I started back at square one. I removed ALL the plug wires and labeled them accordingly. Popped the distributor cap off - and then set the engine to TDC on compression of cyl number 1. Next, I rotated the engine backwards until the little mark on the damper matched with the 10° BTDC mark on the timing tab. I confirmed the rotor was pointing at my number 1 mark that I made on the distributor body (which I made with the cap on so I could be fairly accurate.)

Snapped the cap back on, re-wired, and made EXTRA sure my firing order was the correct 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Before I even tried to fire the engine up, I wanted to be sure my number 1 spark plug would fire immediately… So I tried a new trick I learned from Thunderhead289 on YouTube. With one end of the #1 spark plug wire plugged into it’s spot on the cap (as it should be,) I had the other end hooked up to a spark plug - but not screwed into the head. Rather, I had the spark plug positioned near a ground connection that would allow the spark to arc across. With the ignition hot, I rotated the distributor body very slightly until I could see and hear the plug arcing. This way, I could physically SEE and know exactly where and when the spark plug would fire. Once I found that point, I tightened the distributor down just enough to where I could still make adjustments when I had the engine running.

With everything set up fairly close to where it should be, I added fuel and BOOM!! She lit off immediately. However, I noticed it was still running at a high RPM (1,200 +/-) Come to find out; not wiring up the electric choke and having the fast idle cam engaged doesn’t help… OOPS. Newbie mistake, yes I’m still learning.

Lit her off again and bam, she’s PURRING at 800 rpm. Now, when I checked my timing at 800 rpm I was reading 25° BTDC. After I saw this, I tried to back off the timing a little by spinning the dizzy counterclockwise and then the engine became real unhappy…



Thinking I may need to get a piston stop to see if my damper has spun at all and whether or not I’m possibly 10° off? Based on how it sounded and was running - I’d say my timing was close. I’m wondering if instead of 25 I was really at 15°? I am using a dial back timing light. I moved the dial until the line on the damper was lining up with 0 (which is when the dial landed on 25.)

Some people are saying I have "wayyyy" too much advance, also why my starter is acting funny. HOWEVER, this starter cranks just fine. When it gets hot, it starts to act all funny on me. So again, I'm a bit lost and don't know how to tell if I have way too much advance if my engine sounded happy like it was?? Open to any and all advice / opinions / criticisms!

BIG QUESTION. This IS a stock spec motor, no mild cam, fancy head work - nada. Dizzy was rebuilt by Ray at Halifax Shop up in PA. Would anyone have any other recommendation for initial timing besides 10 BTDC?
 
Set it at 10, bring the idle up and try setting the carb. You basically answered your question by the hard hot start. Its over advanced. Your balancer is most likely ok.
 
Set it at 10, bring the idle up and try setting the carb. You basically answered your question by the hard hot start. Its over advanced. Your balancer is most likely ok.

I may have worded it wrong, the starter cranks the engine over just fine. Here it is in action,



Only thing is, sometimes I have to crank it a long time to get it to fire. After a while, it starts to do what it did in the video of my first post. So the question of my timing comes into play again.
 
You can hear it in your first video. Either the battery is low or your timing is too far advanced. Take it a step at a time, you're getting there. Let's check that timing again and see if you can set it at 10*
 
You can hear it in your first video. Either the battery is low or your timing is too far advanced. Take it a step at a time, you're getting there. Let's check that timing again and see if you can set it at 10*

Probably a mix of the two! I've made sure I was lined up with 10 BTDC on the damper twice now, but my timing is way up there at idle. Could it be that I'm off a tooth on the dizzy? I've seen some people say this on some forums, but not sure if it's something I should try. If it IS off a tooth, would I have to move the gear counterclockwise one tooth?

I appreciate everyone's advice !
 
Probably a mix of the two! I've made sure I was lined up with 10 BTDC on the damper twice now, but my timing is way up there at idle. Could it be that I'm off a tooth on the dizzy? I've seen some people say this on some forums, but not sure if it's something I should try. If it IS off a tooth, would I have to move the gear counterclockwise one tooth?

I appreciate everyone's advice !

Don't listen to other forums, stick with this one.
You need to check your timing, while it's running, vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum supply on the carburetor plugged. Keep the rpm at 800.

You're over thinking things. Keep it simple and one thing at a time. Being off a tooth will only prevent you from turning your distributor far enough to get the timing where you want it to be.
 
Don't listen to other forums, stick with this one.
You need to check your timing, while it's running, vacuum advance disconnected and the vacuum supply on the carburetor plugged. Keep the rpm at 800.

You're over thinking things. Keep it simple and one thing at a time. Being off a tooth will only prevent you from turning your distributor far enough to get the timing where you want it to be.

Copy that, I will try again tomorrow and report here! I think the first problem was reading into other forums and filling my head with ideas that make no sense instead of asking the pros here!
 
What are the cam specs? Large-r cams & lower comp ratios BOTH require more idle timing.
So depending on these factors, a good idle @ 25* BTDC is quite possible, with idle rpm & quality going downhill with less timing....
 
I sure hope all of this wasn't happening on a new cam break-in?
 
It is possible you are one tooth on cam installation. Sometimes not so easy to see. Been there, done that, and I've built many motors.
 
What are the cam specs? Large-r cams & lower comp ratios BOTH require more idle timing.
So depending on these factors, a good idle @ 25* BTDC is quite possible, with idle rpm & quality going downhill with less timing....

This is a stock spec cam, the exact specs I am not sure of - only that it’s stock replacement for my 440! I’m going to reset my initial today and see where I end up at idle.

I sure hope all of this wasn't happening on a new cam break-in?

New stock spec cam, had trouble getting it to run, but finally did. Still, it ran rough but I didn’t want to mess with it so I let it run for 20 mins. All seems fine, I used proper break in oil and all during the break in.
 
I'm not talking about the cam spec. The installation of the cam & timing chain may be a tooth off. That could give you the symptoms you have. Just saying. Good luck.
 
I'm not talking about the cam spec. The installation of the cam & timing chain may be a tooth off. That could give you the symptoms you have. Just saying. Good luck.

My bad, was replying to the above comments and forgot to respond to yours! I’ll definitely inspect that gear and see if I have to move it over 1 tooth. Thanks for the tips!
 
Going back to the car today, will report my findings after i troubleshoot the timing issue. Currently, the way I’ve been “setting” my initial timing is to find TDC, then rotate the engine backwards until the mark on the balancer lines up with -10 on the timing tab. I’ll make sure the rotor is lined up with this mark I made on my distributor body.

AFE08F1E-4714-4BCD-893B-EEEF57DF7E07.jpeg


Maybe you can’t see it well but there’s a little sharpie mark I made . This is so it’s easy for me to see exactly where my #1 plug wire is.

Since I keep getting a really high number at idle, I’m just going to see what it even does if I were to set it at 5 instead of 10 and see what it changes.

Also unrelated, but I was able to come across a high torque mini starter!

80E881BA-3E30-4E9A-8D39-6DA3CBACB017.jpeg


I’ve already installed it on the car. Happy with how it spins over that 440. Well, guess I will have to wait and see what my experiment tells me later. My goal in the end is to be a 440 master and be able to understand these big blocks the way most of you do! I know a lot more than I did before. Now it’s understanding the more complex parts…
 
Have you verified that TDC mark is correct? There are numerous answers on forum about how to do it(with a piston stop in #1 plug hole)
 
Have you verified that TDC mark is correct? There are numerous answers on forum about how to do it(with a piston stop in #1 plug hole)
oldbee (Jeff) your in box for PM is full. Been trying to get ahold of you. Randy (Ghost).
 
Hey everyone, I'm back and I think I can confidently say I have tamed this beast... Well, not alone you see! As you all know, I’ve been experiencing some weird issues time and again that have been narrowed down to issues with the carburetor. I had been running a brand new Edelbrock AVS II 650 CFM carb. The trouble itself really isn't the carburetor, rather - it’s not entirely compatible with the factory intake. A number of folks both on some groups and in person helped me to realize that the throttle blades of the AVS II were binding up with the factory intake manifold. The remedy of course is to add a spacer. I since purchased one from Summit, now I’m just waiting for it to come in…

However, I was curious - as I had the original Carter tucked away in a box. When I first got the car, this carburetor (like the engine) was seized up. It had rat crap, and a whole lot of other gunk inside and all around it. Our good friend and absolute engine wizard / whisperer Matt rebuilt it for me! I purchased one of the generic Carter rebuild kits on eBay and it was mostly correct except for the accelerator pump. I could never really identify the carburetor (I know, rookie right?) - so I don’t even know where to look for the accelerator pump.

Anyways, knowing that the Edelbrock wasn’t working properly - I decided to throw on the old Carter just to see what she’d do! This time, I brought a vacuum gauge with me. Luckily, Matt just so happened to stop by and once he saw me messing with the car, he quickly took charge and BAM!!! She is running AMAZING.

For one, because the throttle blades were binding up on the Edelbrock, the air fuel mixture screws weren’t hardly doing anything. Timing was still off (I had no idea what was wrong.) Now; with this Carter - I ran a thick gasket that we had and it completely changed how this engine ran. It was night and day. Matt eventually retarded the timing way down to about 7°. He did it by ear and with the timing light - this was where the engine was most happy. Remember, I’ve got a stock cam and a stock engine - so this seems about right. Plus, I’m running 87 octane (on hardened valve seats.) Air fuel adjusted to highest vacuum on the vacuum gauge, and idling at about 600 rpm - not pulling any vacuum at all! She's pretty happy at the moment.

Next step is to get this car driving to really dive into the fine tuning. Before any of that, I need to re-install the dashboard, steering wheel, gas / brake pedal etc etc. I guess the true next step is to get all that stuff back into the car, and then to the muffler shop for a proper exhaust. I'm into the 60's Mild Kustom look - so I have my heart set on a true dual exhaust with 2" chrome tips for a nice sound. Thinking of running 24"-"30 glasspacks for a mellow sound that still has a good bite when I lay into it! Anyways - here she is running. Not even 2 revolutions of the starter and she lights off...

 
Look into Bassani mufflers. Mellow at
idle, but come alive when you jump
on it. I've got them on two cars now.
Couldn't be happier. They definitely
don't sound like a fart in a coffee can,
with zero drone.
They're not well known for the car
market, and are most known for
motorcycle exhaust. They're kinda
pricey...but worth it.
 
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As far as exhaust 2 1/4 is the minimum, 2 1/2 is good for a "resto" car Pretty sure you will get tired of the glass packs quickly, but enjoy.
 
Info in post #17 is not adding up. A 68 Chrys 440 should have a Carter AVS card as original equipment. It has the same mounting holes & throttle blade positions as the Edel AVS 650 carb; so if the Carter fits, so should the Edel [ & without a spacer ]. Check that the base gasket was not interfering with the t/blades.
 
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