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Affordable Superbird

I wouldn't be so sure. Especially if the fender tag and original title are one place, and the VIN tag is in another, and you can get an expert to testify in court as to what the junker is/was.
And how do you do that? How do you prove that tag and old title aren't old OBE items for that rebody car? Under pretty much all laws, in fact I know of no exceptions, once a state issues a title for a vehicle, that title is the official documentation for that vehicle unless someone can show proof that there are conflicting numbers, such as the VIN on the dash tag doesn't match the VIN stampings on the body. If those are all the same, then any claims that someone makes that it's a rebody are just that... claims that can't be legally proven.

Where the seller is not being fulsome is he/she states they know who has the original tag and title, but those don't mean diddly. What matters is the original VIN tag and stamped parts, which the seller says could be found, which means they either don't know where they are or know they've been used to rebody. If those parts have been used to rebody another car, and that car has been legally titled, then the buyer of this car is buying a serious pig in a poke because every court will assume a state performed it's due diligence before issuing a title and minus some real evidence, such as a conflict between the dash tag and the body, then anything an expert could testify to would be an opinion and not facts in evidence.
 
I remember a superbird (with wing) sitting in a field in buxton maine for years... back in the late 70's and early 80's. I always wonder what happened to that car.
 
If he doesnt have tag,VIN plate, Title he shouldn't be selling it. Does he possess a bill of sale showing he is legal owner. When is a super bird not a super bird anymore? Is there 2 grand of parts left on this hulk? I mean the few usable parts there are could you transfer them maybe a few piece's of sheet metal on a donor body and say look i have a super bird?
 
And how do you do that? How do you prove that tag and old title aren't old OBE items for that rebody car? Under pretty much all laws, in fact I know of no exceptions, once a state issues a title for a vehicle, that title is the official documentation for that vehicle unless someone can show proof that there are conflicting numbers, such as the VIN on the dash tag doesn't match the VIN stampings on the body. If those are all the same, then any claims that someone makes that it's a rebody are just that... claims that can't be legally proven.

Where the seller is not being fulsome is he/she states they know who has the original tag and title, but those don't mean diddly. What matters is the original VIN tag and stamped parts, which the seller says could be found, which means they either don't know where they are or know they've been used to rebody. If those parts have been used to rebody another car, and that car has been legally titled, then the buyer of this car is buying a serious pig in a poke because every court will assume a state performed it's due diligence before issuing a title and minus some real evidence, such as a conflict between the dash tag and the body, then anything an expert could testify to would be an opinion and not facts in evidence.

In all likelihood, it won't get to court. For one, a person would have to show legal standing to do so. I can't see that happening unless the rebody is sold; the new owner could build a civil case on the basis of fraud if they find out where the numbers really came from.

If the buyer of this bird can put enough pieces of the puzzle together, they could probably leverage the owner of the rebody to give up the numbers (the legality of that transaction is a debate for another day), as the current owner could face federal charges or, at the very least, confiscation of the car. And I say this with the notion that it could be very possible that the VIN swap may have occurred decades ago, and those involved currently have no clue as to what they own.

Assuming someone can get the true numbers back, I don't think this car is even (realistically) repairable. But the numbers should be with the correct car, one way or another. If this auction bird was scrapped, we wouldn't even be having this discussion - think about how many 'supposedly' high dollar cars are out there with no carcass left to tell the tale.
 
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You purists make me laugh. What the difference if you replace every piece of sheet metal around the numbers or just move the numbers to another shell? NONE AT ALL !!
 
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I agree with Stanton --that this idea of when a car stops being the car it was is a personal and sometimes silly struggle with bragging rights or selling price.

There is no end to the question when we are talking about giving life back to a Frankenstein car.

Legal issues vary from state to state and are only one issue.

Scam cars are in the minds of the builders and buyers. Builders may hope to profit with "numbers" details appearing correct and buyers may not even care if it's original and are thereby just passing that scam down the line.

IMO when a car leaves the factory- given a title and driven -it is all down hill.
Kinda like us--:)
 
You purists make me laugh. What the difference if you replace every piece of sheet metal around the numbers or just move the numbers to another shell? NONE AT ALL !!


The difference would be you, 47 years older, with false teeth, a pace maker, and a replacement hip, versus someone younger illegally using your social security number for identity theft.
 
affordable do you realize how much money it would take even if you had another body which that would be Highly illegal to do switch tags ,I have swept up more mopar rust when I had a body-shop while doing restorations than this car has together its not worth it in my book ,but that is just input ,not saying it couldn't be done but with no paper work or tags to me its nothing :wtf:
 
But what about the "secret vin" hidden on the inside of the framerails? ...sponsored by CNN or real?
 
But what about the "secret vin" hidden on the inside of the framerails? ...sponsored by CNN or real?


Pretty cool. A "secret vin" that was so good/secret that it has absolutely no value to anyone.:p--(CNN stuff for sure)

However-- testing of metal parts can lead back to heat numbers that are like a DNA code.
Also fingerprints and other debris left by assemblers should not be left uncovered.:poke:
 
I don't see how "real" or "Superbird" could be applied to these remains.
What metal is salvageable?
 
I agree with Stanton --that this idea of when a car stops being the car it was is a personal and sometimes silly struggle with bragging rights or selling price.

This car is a perfect example of where a problem comes in. That hulk is restoreable. I think 97.9% of us would call it a fool's errand, but there's always someone out there with something to prove who would do whatever it took to get that car restored, and when they do they will get that original data tag and title and want to title the car in their name.

The problem is there's every likelihood that the car's VIN has been rebodied onto another car, and that car has been titled with that VIN, which in the eyes of the law in this case... possession literally is 9/10ths of the law. Whoever possesses the car with the VINs, and a current title, is the owner of that car/VIN. The guy who restores the hulk can come up with as compelling a case as he/she likes, but it's not going to be compelling enough to get a court to rule against the rebody owner when their car has all the VINs and the original car has none. That would set a pretty dangerous precedent.

So as long as there are guys who believe they can make a shiny, restored, silk purse out of a rusted out, busted up, sow's ear, there's going to be a problem. :)
 
So why would someone take the VIN tag and Fender tag off that car other than just to say he had it or for illegal purposes? The seller goes on to say he knows who has the tag(s) and maybe can acquire them, i wonder the price for them.
 
The seller says he can get a hold of an older title and fender tag, he does not mention being able to get the VIN tag.
 
From DC.com:

"That car sat on the roof of that wagon since it was totaled in 1972,it was 12 mi from me until last winter.It was a Tor Red 6 pk console 4 s pd.I have had the fender scoops and console since 1982,the diamond corner pieces are on my bird,I could have had it for just removing it but wasn't interested,the owner was a personal friend of mine.He had removed all the numbers years ago,probably still somewhere in the barn.He passed away at the age of 75 about 12 yrs ago."

and

"I also "had" the bare block that I bought from the original owner .He kept the some of the drive train when he sold it after he wrecked it to the fellow that I mentioned above.I sold the block to a fellow in NJ.about 15 yrs ago,the Dana went into my 70 Bee in place of the 4.10 rear,the transmission is in a 69 Hemi RR about 20 mi from me.The car was sold new at H.E.Wagner Motors,Johnstown,PA.also about 25 mi,never left the area."

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127243.0.html
 
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