BORGESON GEAR BOX INSTALL WITH FAST RATIO OR STANDARD PITMAN IDLER ARMS???

[HAHNAGON]

Did Borgeson or BAC ever say anything about the use of fast ratio pitman or idler arms? Are they compatible or not recommended with the borgeson setup? Can fast ratio cause any issues or is it just up to owners preference? I installed a new borgeson gear box kit, borgeson hoses and coupler with a new saginaw pump. I also installed new pst tie rods, w/ adj. solid sleeves and fast ratio pitman and idler arms. I have some mild issues. I used mopar +4 ps fluid, NOT ATF+4 by the way. My biggest concern is my steering still feels overboosted. Steering wheel moves very easy when engine runs and has a very tiny bit of slop at 11-1 but not as bad as a factory ps gear box. It's better, but just not what I expected. It also is glitchy like it doesn't have enough boost, fluid or air in the system??? I don't know. Its just not what I expected. I removed all zerk fittings due to clearance issues and replaced the fast ratio idler arm with a standard idler arm because of possible intermittent clearance concerns. I left the f.r. pitman on, checked toe for the 100th time, test drove and nothing changed.
Any advice or noticeable issues with my combination. I have no problem swapping the fast ratio arms out for standard arms if that will solve my concerns.
I triple checked torque spec on everything, bleed the system more than once, checked level when warm and cold, checked column/bolts, double checked pitman on gear box alignment, etc.

 

[steve340]

There was a thread on FEBO I think from someone who had the fast ratio stuff but removed it and used stock and it solved his problem.

 

[Don67Satellite]

Which ones are you using? Firm Feel Fast Ratio? I do believe pitman/idler have to be used together, so if you popped the stock pitman back on, you should likely go back to stock on the idler too.

 

[steve340]

Yep E bodies the post about pitman arm etc was from a guy goes by DRIVUN
One of the posts from him gave a good description of his problem and how he solved it.
The Borgeson box does require a pressure mod to the Saginaw pump.

 

[Kern Dog]

The Borgeson unit has a 14 to 1 ratio. The Fast Ratio steering arms would alter the ratio to approximately 10 to 1. This is far faster than any production car that I know of. For example, there were some GM cars that had a 12 to 1 box but those seemed to feel fine.
In theory, the 10 to 1 seems like it would be really twitchy.
I’ve only done 2 Borgeson swaps but in both cases, the stock length steering arms were used. I have none of the overboosted symptoms that you describe.
Maybe your pump pulley is smaller than recommended? My pulley is 6”. Another car I did the swap had a 7” pulley. Both have Saginaw pumps and both feel normal. None of the center slop either.

 

[davek]

I used my stock arm. Dont know about a pressure mod on pump. Been using mine with no mod on pump for over 5 years.

 

[HAHNAGON]

ok. I think I'm going to swap the fr pitman arm to a standard. Thank you all for the quick responses. I wish I had this group of people to ask questions to when I was younger. Thanks again.

 

[HAHNAGON]

The Borgeson unit has a 14 to 1 ratio. The Fast Ratio steering arms would alter the ratio to approximately 10 to 1. This is far faster than any production car that I know of. For example, there were some GM cars that had a 12 to 1 box but those seemed to feel fine.
In theory, the 10 to 1 seems like it would be really twitchy.
I’ve only done 2 Borgeson swaps but in both cases, the stock length steering arms were used. I have none of the overboosted symptoms that you describe.
Maybe your pump pulley is smaller than recommended? My pulley is 6”. Another car I did the swap had a 7” pulley. Both have Saginaw pumps and both feel normal. None of the center flip either.

Thank you KD. I always notice your comments in posts. I greatly appreciate you sharing your knowledge and time. I'm dumping the fast ratio arms.

 

[Kern Dog]

Put the Fast Ratio arms for sale here. They will sell.
I’d ask at least $150 for the pair.
Good luck.

 

[KiwiKid72]

I wonder how the OP went with the original linkages. Problem solved?

 

[HAHNAGON]

I wonder how the OP went with the original linkages. Problem solved?

Yes. It fixed it. I also had poly lca bushings that where coming out. I put in factory moog lca bushings and much better. PS does still feel a little overboosted but much better. It does NOT feel like my new challenger or any other modern car ps steering feel, like the retailers say. Maybe I need to add a washer to the saginaw ps pump like people do to tighten up the factory ps box?

 

[HAHNAGON]

here it is up top with a ps cooler

 

[Kern Dog]

. Maybe I need to add a washer to the saginaw ps pump like people do to tighten up the factory ps box?

It could be a simple difference in what you wrote versus what you meant but the “shim” in the power steering pump does nothing to tighten up anything. It just reduces the amount of pressure that the pump puts out.

 

[HAHNAGON]

It could be a simple difference in what you wrote versus what you meant but the “shim” in the power steering pump does nothing to tighten up anything. It just reduces the amount of pressure that the pump puts out.

I just don't want the steering wheel to be so easy to turn. I like it to turn a little slower or firmer, if that makes sense? Or if it's even possible? Either way, it is definitely better than factory.

 

[Kern Dog]

I figured it was just a difference in how it was phrased.
The stock Mopar OEM steering is way overboosted. That was how they were when new. It must have been what the public wanted.

 

[HAHNAGON]

I figured it was just a difference in how it was phrased.
The stock Mopar OEM steering is way overboosted. That was how they were when new. It must have been what the public wanted.

Yes. It was. You are right. Apparently that's what everyone wanted or at least, that is what helped sell cars.

 

[KiwiKid72]

Do you think the cooler is necessary?

I'm just looking into a Borgeson kit with the Bergman connector, but use the factory pump that's already in the car.

 

[Kern Dog]

The need for the cooler is dependent on a few things.
If you have wide front tires and drive aggressively in hot weather, you absolutely need an inline cooler.
I've had one since maybe 2001 after my worn original steering box would sometimes bind up and feel notchy. The fluid got too hot and thinned out, causing inconsistent pressure.

 

[BergmanAutoCraft]

Do you think the cooler is necessary?

I'm just looking into a Borgeson kit with the Bergman connector, but use the factory pump that's already in the car.

We carry the whole kit. This allows factory hoses. We also port all the control heads for cooler fluid temps.

 

[HAHNAGON]

Do you think the cooler is necessary?

I'm just looking into a Borgeson kit with the Bergman connector, but use the factory pump that's already in the car.

IDK. Probably not necessary unless you race on the track. I just figured it would be good insurance for an investment that costs over $1,000.