Borgeson Steering Box mount on K-Frame fail, what to do now?

[myk r sanchez]

Those dents would not amount to much loss, none that you would feel. I thought the Borgeson box was smaller? Many times on a BB car, the engine needs to be lifted slightly to get the headers up into the engine compartment and close to the head, then the engine slowly lowered to get the headers on, especially with generic headers.

That's what had to happen to my 440 and the Doug's headers I bought. Engine had to come up to get them in the bay, and then back down to get them bolted on...

 

[MoparGuy68]

I wonder if this is the first example of headers not clearing the smaller box? Is the borgeson box...shaped differently than the stock box? Maybe I'll just chicken out and grab the firm feel box instead lol...

Yes, the Borgeson box is shaped differently than the stock box, the castings are completely different. I took measurements tonight to determine WHY the Borgeson box will NOT clear my lead header pipe, yet the stock box does clear it.

The stock box may be BIGGER overall, but it is SMALLER where it counts, in the lead #1 header piper region. The top of the sector shaft casting is taller on the Borgeson, bringing it up higher towards the header pipe. The side of the sector shaft casting is closer to the mounting holes on the engine side of the box. This brings the Borgeson box physically closer to the engine than the stock box is, this also allows less room for the lead pipe. Thirdly, the rounded casting of the top sector area on the stock box, which also has a domed top, gives again, more clearance for the lead pipe. The Borgeson casting in that area is more rectangular and has those protruding bolt heads, that get in the way of my lead header piper as well!

The photos show why the Borgeson doesn't allow clearance where the stock box does. If you want to run headers with this Borgeson box, you better make sure the #1 lead pipe runs straight back with no downward travel..

 

[70chall440]

I've looked at your pictures and read your comments and I am not really seeing what you are saying, but I think I understand it. My initial thought is that your headers are your main problem; they look like old school Thorley or something which never fit well when new. I have a stock box in my Challenger and am running Schumacher Tri Y headers which fit exceptionally well, problem is that they have shut down. I realize that TTI's are expensive but I know they fit. This is hot rodding at its finest, most of us have been there many times trying to make things fit.

If you want to use the new box, you are going to need new headers or manifolds IMO. You could always build your own headers...

 

[myk r sanchez]

Any progress?

 

[MoparGuy68]

Any progress?

I installed a new oil dipstick tube, the gearbox and starter, weekend before last. Was out of town this past weekend so haven't done anything since. Waiting on parts I ordered from Classic Industries on April 16th (still haven't shipped out yet).. Will need these parts before I can run the engine. I'm posting updates in the Bergman vendor section, as I progress on this project.

 

[pjm8047]

I was having the same problem putting in my rebuilt steering box. Make sure u are using the correct bolts. I tried just plan grade 8 bolts they wouldn’t go in more then a few turns then I tried the correct bolts they went in but super tight I thought I was stripping them The correct bolts have some cutting teeth on them.

 

[MoparGuy68]

I was having the same problem putting in my rebuilt steering box. Make sure u are using the correct bolts. I tried just plan grade 8 bolts they wouldn’t go in more then a few turns then I tried the correct bolts they went in but super tight I thought I was stripping them The correct bolts have some cutting teeth on them.

View attachment 945595

I didn't use the original bolts, they were "super tight" going in, like you said. I didn't want to strip the threads in my K-Frame.. I've read that bolts should NOT be THAT tight going in because you cannot get accurate torquing of them with your torque wrench. After using the ARP chaser, new grade 8 bolts go in my K-Frame and will torque accurately. Also one of my threaded holes was cross threaded somewhat, after removing the stock box which the ARP chaser fixed.

 

[pjm8047]

It’s always something with these old Mopar’s but u gotta love them.

 

[mrmolding]

I wanted to say THANKS for this thread! My 70 RR came with manual but the column was missing the white bushing between the shaft and tube. So I figured I'd get PS eventually if I'm pulling the column. I went back and forth between getting a Borgeson/Bergman or newer PST manual gear box but stumbled on the Lares 11033 PS gear box. It is supposed to be a modern box but sized like the older PS boxes and hooks up with stock coupler. But, these boxes are supposed to have mounting issues in that they recommend grinding down part of the k-frame if it bobbles on the mounts. Regardless, I am having a nightmare holding this thing up and aligning the bolts and when I get them started, they are at wrong angles. So, I found this thread looking for help! I am waiting for the ARP thread cleaner to get here so I can get back to it! Also thinking about using some wood dowels to see if I can at least see if it lines up. Taking lots of pics in case I decide to make a thread about it.

 

[MoparGuy68]

I wanted to say THANKS for this thread! My 70 RR came with manual but the column was missing the white bushing between the shaft and tube. So I figured I'd get PS eventually if I'm pulling the column. I went back and forth between getting a Borgeson/Bergman or newer PST manual gear box but stumbled on the Lares 11033 PS gear box. It is supposed to be a modern box but sized like the older PS boxes and hooks up with stock coupler. But, these boxes are supposed to have mounting issues in that they recommend grinding down part of the k-frame if it bobbles on the mounts. Regardless, I am having a nightmare holding this thing up and aligning the bolts and when I get them started, they are at wrong angles. So, I found this thread looking for help! I am waiting for the ARP thread cleaner to get here so I can get back to it! Also thinking about using some wood dowels to see if I can at least see if it lines up. Taking lots of pics in case I decide to make a thread about it.

Yes, the ARP thread chaser saved the day for me. I used 3 studs to hold the gearbox to the K-frame. Screwed the three studs into the K-frame, then slid the gearbox in place. Then one at a time, I removed a stud and carefully replaced it with a bolt.

You have to be a bit of a masochist to work on these very old and tired cars.

 

[mrmolding]

Yes, the ARP thread chaser saved the day for me. I used 3 studs to hold the gearbox to the K-frame. Screwed the three studs into the K-frame, then slid the gearbox in place. Then one at a time, I removed a stud and carefully replaced it with a bolt.

You have to be a bit of a masochist to work on these very old and tired cars.

ARP chaser worked great for me! But, once that was all done, I got the side with two mount holes to start in the k-frame to mount the Lares 11033 box in and it hit the k-frame on the other side as others have experienced. So the third bolt would not go in unless I ground down the k-frame a bit to make the excess on the lares sit flush. Nope! I sent it back and I'm probably going to get a borgeson or stay with manual.

 

[44070dart]

Same issue with the Lares box, number 11033. I sent it back, got another and it bolted down, but the stupid thing has a thing where it's difficult to move from center for about 8 inches in either direction then it's like P/S is working. damn