front end alignment

[69 buzz]

took my super bee for alignment and its awful. they have tried 3 times and going back tomorrow. they are replacing front tires because they are eat up. the sad thing is it drove good before taking it. i was just doing general upkeep and balancing tires and this is what happened. they have replaced lower control arm bushings and one ball joint. it still squeals front tires and darts around...it also sits higher now. anybody else ever have this happen and possible causes thanks

 

[dla4567]

I'd go somewhere else. It doesn't take long for an alignment shop to check for play in the suspension. The only time I've had front tires so out of alignment that they squealed was when my upper control arms split.

 

[khryslerkid]

Yes, when you take it to someone who doesn't know what they're doing on this type of car. Find someone who has done a '60's / '70's car before.

 

[RT SE 440]

x3 someone else .. look for someone who uses the old school manual system .the car sitting higher means they have adjusted the torsion bar bolts on the lower control arm

 

[Moparsmitty]

Do yourself a favor and go to the local NAPA parts store in your area and ask the oldest counterman in the place who has the best alignment shop in town. As a general rule I don't send people to a tire store for alignment work. Their business is selling tires and to many of them the alignment work is a sideline that they aren't all that interested in, or good at doing. There are exceptions of course, but I have found that big tire shops put guys on the alignment rack that are fresh out of tech school and aren't familiar with old cars. Good luck.

 

[69 buzz]

actually guy doing it has worked at another independant shop for years and came recommended by other mechanics as being one of best. he is scratching head too. the guy coming tomorrow is long time mechanic that is good with alignment also ive known for years so i have my fingers crossed they find problem. good thing is ive lived here my whole life and know manager from childhood and they are bending over backwards to satisfy me. gave my money back, paying for the new parts and tires and anything else that comes up. they said they just want me happy and not give bad publicity lol. they are good people and have said they are missing something. i just was wondering any advice i might could pass along to look at. any help is appreciated

 

[Kern Dog]

x3 someone else .. look for someone who uses the old school manual system .the car sitting higher means they have adjusted the torsion bar bolts on the lower control arm

The same problem occurs if the toe is set IN. The tires turn in towards each other and the car will lift.

I agree... Call another alignment guy, hopefully one with a rack that isn't digital. Modern techs often don't have the skill. It is sad, too. These cars are simple to do if you understand them.

 

[BLK 68 R/T]

Also if you have modern radials you can't have them aligned to stock bias ply specs and expect them to wear properly and handle good. Ask for -0.5 degrees camber, +2.5 degrees caster and 1/16" to 1/8" toe in. This would be for a driver car.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Might try checking the frame for alignment also. If there is a frame rail out it will not align correctly.

 

[cudak888]

took my super bee for alignment and its awful. they have tried 3 times and going back tomorrow. they are replacing front tires because they are eat up. the sad thing is it drove good before taking it. i was just doing general upkeep and balancing tires and this is what happened. they have replaced lower control arm bushings and one ball joint. it still squeals front tires and darts around...it also sits higher now. anybody else ever have this happen and possible causes thanks

This combination of issues (and the lack of problems previous to the trip to the shop) has me convinced that your torsion bars were tightened too much. As a secondary effect, this also reduces the amount of available caster in the suspension geometry. Both combined result in the same lack of self-centering often associated with improper toe-in adjustment.

I also have a hunch your front tires are smaller in overall diameter than what the car came with. Not that the smaller tires themselves are an issue, but you're almost guaranteed to get your front end jacked up in the air from any "read the specs and set it without thinking" alignment shop if the tires are smaller - even if you have them dial in the correct caster and camber for radials.

This may not make sense at first glance, but read on:

Mopar suspension adjustments are made with ride height (a.k.a. the torsion bars) adjusted FIRST, by measuring and setting the distance between the bottom of the control arm to the ground. Naturally, if the new tire is either smaller or larger than what the factory originally intended, this measurement should decrease or increase, respectively.

However, instead of working in this difference before fooling with the suspension, most shops just jack up the torsion bars to whatever the factory measurement is (mostly out of ignorance, it's only "because of liability" if anyone asks; a statement grounded in ignorance in itself). Whatever the case, if your tires are smaller in diameter, your suspension will now be extended in travel more than it needs to be, and getting proper caster and camber won't help much because of the overextended control arm geometry.

What to do before you go to the alignment shop: Find out the difference in your tire diameter from what that Bee had when original. Take old diameter, subtract new diameter. Divide result by two, then take that result and subtract it from the factory torsion bar height measurement for a stock ride height. Use that as a baseline torsion bar measurement, and pair it with the caster and camber of your choice from that suspension chart that everybody posts here now and then (and always on the A-Body forum).

Then take these measurements and drum it into your alignment shop's Mopar-ignorant skulls until they set it to these specifications. And if they won't, find a shop that will, then test drive it. You should be pleasantly surprised.

-Kurt

P.S.: You don't hear this out of Ford and Chebby guys with coilovers, because shops don't have the opportunity to make a ride height adjustment on these suspensions. I bet weird things happen at alignment shops with Ford Rangers though...

 

[miller]

cudak888 is right on the mark! Alignment on one of these cars, must be done in the right order, of what is set.
'Most' alignment shops out there now...if it ain't in the computer, flat lost.

Your best bet, get into your service manual, and read up on the alignment. Only one way to do these things...the right way.

 

[Scatransit]

There is nothing wrong with modern digital equipment. In fact, it's leaps and bounds better than what was available even a decade ago - much less the 60's & 70's. The issue is that most alignments nowadays only involve toe adjustment, and many "new" techs don't often deal with the other angles day-to-day because many times they are simply not adjustable. Camber, Caster, SAI, etc. (not to mention our ride height) are all a lost art on many modern cars, but critical on our old MOPARS. Point is, it's not the age of the equipment, but understanding basic alignment principals and how to achieve results that counts. Good luck, sounds like you have a good shop & they are trying to do the right thing.

 

[miller]

Almost funny. On my little 'project', set all alignment using a ruler, square, and degree wheel, of course on my level shop floor. One hour, but that includes all my beer breaks!

 

[super-bee_ski]

I'm lucky to have a "Old School" mechanic who is a Muscle Car guy and is very knowledgeable with "Timing" a Torsion Bar Suspension on Mopars