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Hardened valve seats

I always get a chuckle when I hear about how Mopar heads are so hard they don’t need seats installed for unleaded fuel.
Especially when I’m installing some into a set of 452’s where the seats are recessed into no man’s land.

If you drive it a lot, and drive it hard, and especially if it has an aftermarket camshaft with higher spring loads...... the exhaust seats will recede.

Seats falling out is pretty rare.
Every aluminum head made, which is what is on almost every new vehicle........ has pressed in seats.
 
I was pleased, when I bought my car, to get the receipts with the car showing the engine rebuild work that was done on it. On one of the receipts it clearly shows that hardened exhaust valve seats were installed in the heads.

I used to put lead substitute in my previous Mopar, because I knew it never had hardened seats installed in the heads.
 
Thanks that answers almost all my questions.

Now i basically have 3 choices:

A: Using lead additive if i can find it
B: Using lead substitute and wait until/if the failure occurs
C: Going straight to aluminum heads which would also gain some extra horses

So if i should go for aluminum heads.
Which ones should i buy? Is there a Kit with everything needed to install? (Do i need the heads and gaskets only?)
How much horsepower can i gain with aluminum heads? (Without further mods)

Michael,

If you WANT aluminum heads for increased performance, then by all means go for it. But you will likely also need a different camshaft to take advantage of the aluminum heads greater flow capacity to make them worth it.

If the only reason you are doing this is a fear of the seats, I say to drive it until you have a problem. With your stock engine, you likely can drive for many years and have no issues whatsoever.

Case in point: I drove my numbers matching, untouched 383 with 82,000 miles on it across the USA. I put almost 6000 miles on the engine for that trip alone, probably 10,000 since I have had the car. Never once have I ever even had a hint of a problem (and I have not used lead substitute either). I realize that is just one example. My seats WOULD fail eventually, but it will take a long time. With the limited usage these cars get, you may never need to worry about it.

Good Luck,

Hawk
 
I wanted to use lead additive (not substitute) but it seems really hard to get in my area.
Its also illegal in my area.

There is a hardened valve upgrade set available (its from indy)
https://www.moparshop.com/Online-Shop/Motoren-Teile/16219/Upgrade-gehaertete-Ventilsitze

its just about 200 usd.

How much work would that upgrade be?
Would you have to remove the cylinder heads?
If so can you do this without removing the engine?
Is there anything you should pay attention to? Especially if i want to push the engine hard from time to time.

Car is a 69 charger rt with the 440cui engine.


Question to the OP, can you buy leaded racing fuel or 100LL Aviation gasoline in Germany? If so, if you blended that into your regular fuel at approx. a 1:3 ratio that would provide ample lead to protect valve seats. Also, it would not have to be every tank full as the effect on the valve seats is slightly residual.
 
It is misconceptions like this, myths, and plain old outright lies that prevent a person from fixing their heads correctly. A seat installed with a "Fixed" cutter will NEVER fall out short of severe overheating. A seat installed with adjustable tooling, with the proper interference fit (0.004"-0.005" for a cast head and 0.007"-0.010" for aluminum), will NOT fall out either, short of the aforementioned overheating issue. You will NEVER get cracks around a seat due to machining, and needing seats is NEVER decided on how many miles you drive it. As far as the money, if you call $96 ($12 per seat) and usually $3.66 per seat, for a total of $125.28 + tax (my fee), then...

I ONLY do things the correct and proper way in my shop, and my customers appreciate that and show it by the amount of work I have.
You may do it correctly but not all shops are ,I've seen heads ruined by the wrong process
 
I wanted to use lead additive (not substitute) but it seems really hard to get in my area.
Its also illegal in my area.

There is a hardened valve upgrade set available (its from indy)
https://www.moparshop.com/Online-Shop/Motoren-Teile/16219/Upgrade-gehaertete-Ventilsitze

its just about 200 usd.

How much work would that upgrade be?
Would you have to remove the cylinder heads?
If so can you do this without removing the engine?
Is there anything you should pay attention to? Especially if i want to push the engine hard from time to time.

Car is a 69 charger rt with the 440cui engine.
I would like to give my perspective.
1.Way back when, in the 1960's when muscle cars were all the rage, Amoco service stations sold their very highest fuel, probably 100 octane with no lead. It was commonly known among us as "White Gas." We all used it in our cars and as teenagers and guys in their early 20's we pushed our cars to the limit and in some cases, beyond. I can't remember anyone needing a "valve job" on these muscle cars,as it was called in the day. However, even though leaded fuel was the predominant fuel, the average family 6-cylinder or mild V8 seemed to need a "valve job" before 100,000 miles. I worked in a service station and this was a common repair for cars 10+ years old. So I know that lead in the fuel is supposed to prevent valve recession, but I think you need to consider if you will be putting thousands, or even tens of thousands of miles/kilometers on your car before you sell it or curtail driving it as much.
2. in 1972 Chrysler hardened the valves of its 6-cylinder engines and in the owners manual, which I still have, and just looked at the other day, it says that the 6-cylinder cars can use unleaded fuel, the V8 engines could also run on unleaded fuel, however if the vehicle was subject to towing or predominately highway driving then leaded fuel should be used every fourth fill-up, so a mixture of 25% leaded fuel would be OK for a 440. Back in the day, the lead content was about 2.2 to 2.5 grams per gallon. So, the Chrysler engineering recommendation would be only about 0.5 to 0.7 grams per gallon, so it's not much lead and that is only if you tow or use it for mostly highway driving.
3. I wish I could put my hands on it but right now I can't, but there was an MIT study in the 1970's about the content of lead needed to protect engines, and they concluded that 0.1 gram per gallon would be enough. So we are not talking about a lot of lead at all to do the job. they also concluded that at the time, there was no sufficient lead substitute. Now chemical engineering since that time has advanced, but even then, companies were selling lead substitutes, and the conclusion was that they did not do the job.
4. As you say, lead in passenger car, on road cars is illegal. There's a very good health reason for that.
Anyway, that is my perspective. Good luck in your decision.
 
Was just able to purchase this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TetraBOO...ded-fuel-with-ethanol-protection/254635058356

So the problem is solved for now.

Question to the OP, can you buy leaded racing fuel or 100LL Aviation gasoline in Germany? If so, if you blended that into your regular fuel at approx. a 1:3 ratio that would provide ample lead to protect valve seats. Also, it would not have to be every tank full as the effect on the valve seats is slightly residual.

Well you can buy 100LL Aviation Gas in Munich, which is about 60 miles away.
Did not found anything in my city on the internet but we have a small airport not far away so maybe i should drive by and ask.
Dont know about racing gas. How is that stuff called exactly?

-----

But no matter if you use the lead additive, 100LL or Racing Gas. Its all expensive.
I decided i do not want to ruin the original heads (because who knows if i can find someone to rebuild them correctly) so i think at some point i will upgrade to aluminum heads. Until then i will run leaded fuel.

Anybody got recommendations for heads?
As asked bevor is there a kit with everything i need?
Just want to be a little prepared when the time for the upgrade comes.

Edit:

Tetraboost recommends to add 100ml to every 11.5L of unleaded gas.
What do you guys think? That would cost 25 bucks each time filling it up.
Do i really need to add that much? :)
 
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If you are not pushing the engine hard all the time a little bit of aviation fuel will be fine.
Advice given by an earlier poster was right - you only need to but a small amount of av gas in the tank.
 
Just sent an email to the airport asking if they would sell me the AVGas. :D

So how much AV/Regular Gas would you run? 50:50? Or less/more?
Would you add 100ml Lead Additive to 11.5L Regular Gas as stated on the Tetraboost can? Or less?

I will push the engine hard regularly so i do not want to save pennys on fuel compared to thousands for new heads.
 
An earlier poster gave you some idea of the mix ratio. Go back through the posts.
My own experience - on a 351 Cleveland we eventually got down to 10% AV with no worries and that engine was pushed hard - not raced but the guy who owned it was not shy.
AV gasoline has way more lead in it than automotive fuel ever did - in short run to high a concentration of AV and you will get too much lead.
Don't know about additives never use them.
 
Just sent an email to the airport asking if they would sell me the AVGas. :D

So how much AV/Regular Gas would you run? 50:50? Or less/more?
Would you add 100ml Lead Additive to 11.5L Regular Gas as stated on the Tetraboost can? Or less?

I will push the engine hard regularly so i do not want to save pennys on fuel compared to thousands for new heads.

100LL Aviation Gasoline contains 2 grams per gallon of lead. .5 gram per gallon will give ample seat protection, so the 1:3 ratio I mentioned earlier will attain that volume. The effect is residual as well, you will not have to run the leaded blend every tankful.
 
I run about 15% AV100LL, so 3 or 4 gallons to a full tank of Shell 92. Jerry Hall runs 50/50 in all his classics without issue. I use it for lead and an octane boost for my 383 and 440HPs, but I don't have to go more than 100 feet to put it in my car.. :D
100LLtank 001.JPG
 
I run about 15% AV100LL, so 3 or 4 gallons to a full tank of Shell 92. Jerry Hall runs 50/50 in all his classics without issue. I use it for lead and an octane boost for my 383 and 440HPs, but I don't have to go more than 100 feet to put it in my car.. :D
View attachment 967460

That is a good mix ratio. Higher does no harm but is unnecessary.

I love the way Shell advertises 92 octane at some pumps, but it leaves the refinery at 91. Must be magic in the tanker.
 
This thread reminded me to call Hammond in the morning to get my 500 gallon tank refilled!
 
I had hardened exhaust seats put into my Iron heads. Not having to worry about valve recession on unleaded fuel was worth the price.
 
So 1:3 or 15% AVGAS? I guess 1:3 cant hurt.
I will carry 1 or 2 canister in the trunk so i can refill the car up during a trip.

As far as the additive i guess i follow the instructions on the bottle.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/TetraBOOST-...ded-fuel-with-ethanol-protection/254635058356
But this is pricey. Do i really need 100ml for 11.5L of pump gas?

View attachment 967509

A couple of points here. If you use 4 gallons of 100LL Avgas in the tank when you fill a B Body with premium unleaded, that will be decent fuel and give more than adequate valve seat protection.

As far as the Tetraboost additive, you do not know what concentration of lead is in it. You also have to be cautious comparing octane numbers between NA and Europe. Europe quotes the Research Octane number which is higher. NA uses the average (Research + Motor ) / 2.

I used to work for Sunoco, so the following results were verified in a Wakashaw Knock Engine, albeit years ago. Using Sunoco 94 (99 research octane) as a base and by adding 2 grams per gallon of lead, 102-103 research octane was achieved. The amount of tetra-ethyl lead that would be required to be in the TetraBoost container to achieve the results they claim would make it highly toxic. Too toxic to ship and handle. I suspect their claimed results are optimistic at best.
 
A couple of points here. If you use 4 gallons of 100LL Avgas in the tank when you fill a B Body with premium unleaded, that will be decent fuel and give more than adequate valve seat protection.

As far as the Tetraboost additive, you do not know what concentration of lead is in it. You also have to be cautious comparing octane numbers between NA and Europe. Europe quotes the Research Octane number which is higher. NA uses the average (Research + Motor ) / 2.

I used to work for Sunoco, so the following results were verified in a Wakashaw Knock Engine, albeit years ago. Using Sunoco 94 (99 research octane) as a base and by adding 2 grams per gallon of lead, 102-103 research octane was achieved. The amount of tetra-ethyl lead that would be required to be in the TetraBoost container to achieve the results they claim would make it highly toxic. Too toxic to ship and handle. I suspect their claimed results are optimistic at best.

Excellent example....too many people are looking for a panacea in an easy (?) to use product, without any research ..... especially taking the word of the manufacturer whose product is soliciting your $$$ donation. WHAT IF after using their product, and it does not perform to their or your expectations, say an exhaust valve failure or seat issue, will they reimburse you for the repair costs and refund price of the product. What is their liability?? This info is NEVER included in the description of the product or in the concentration to use, only how great the material is..... Also, be aware of the MANGANESE COMPOUNDS added....these compounds are death to spark plugs. As the old expression goes: "Let the buyer beware" applies... just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON
 
Thanks guys.
Got the response from my local airport today and they will sell it to me. :)

Well as far as Tetraboost i will follow the instructions.
I hope it contains enough lead to protect the valves.
At least it contains real lead and is not a substitute like almost everything else.
After i used it up (already ordered 6 cans) i will most likely switch to AVGAS 100LL as its available locally.
 
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