I am here to eat crow!

[moparedtn]

A mea culpa to the FBBO community:
With all my trevails of trying to get my 440 tuned correctly, all you guys kept telling me to "find the REAL top dead center FIRST".
Well, I've been hesitant, my shadetree skills keeping me from believing that the factory harmonic balancer just couldn't possibly be that far off on indicated TDC.

Hell, I even bought another distributor, figuring it had to be the Mopar Performance electronic one that was screwing up.
To make matters even worse, there's a brand new Edelbrock Thunder AVS carburetor awaiting installation, again because I wanted to blame the Holley for the misbehaving 440.

I know, I know....I'm an idiot.

Well, the other item I bought when I got the AVS was a simple TDC piston stop tool and today, I decided to learn how to use it. Thinking back on how you guys told me to find true TDC, off I went...
and this pic is the result:


Yeah. It's off. WAY off. As in "not even in the same zip code" off.
This would also explain the odd vibration I get at certain RPM's sometimes, too, eh?

So, again, mea culpa. There's a world more knowledge and experience here at FBBO than I can even comprehend and again, the community was right and I was a mule headed arse.

Reckon that purty little harmonic balancer over at Summit is looking nice right about now...

 

[69Runner]

If it's any consolation I learned a lot from your posts! Great find.

 

[440roadrunner]

Glad you finally got there. As an old guy I learned this in the early 70's at a part time job in the Navy. Here is the stop I built "back then" for small block Mopars

I've probably used it 20 times or more, sometimes not in my engine, and not always finding something "off" but at least once you CHECK it you know what "isn't" wrong, LOL

"Back in those days" I found a fair number of Ford 352/ 390s that slipped the dampener. Also, buy the time I "got" them many times the cam drive (nylon teeth) had slipped, so you are going WTF??

So far as vibration, "I doubt it." You probably have a wrong combo of engine parts, including piston / rod weight, crank, torque converter / flywheel and dampener.

Way WAY before the wubya wubya wubya came along, I put a 360 into an old Landcruiser using a 340 flywheel. I'd been told it was "different" balance, and "expected." YES!!! it shook. And it did so "at different" RPM points through the range.

 

[moparedtn]

Mine's more like a sporadic, once in a while sort of fine vibration - almost a hmmmmm of sorts, only at a certain RPM (IIRC, around 1700RPM or so).
Wish I could tell you what is in this engine, but it was built by the former (deceased) owner. He had decades of experience as a mechanic at their local Dodge dealer and was one of those who built engines for folks on the side.
All I could get out of the heir who sold it was "the original 440 cracked a block, so he took the guts and put it in this engine"...whatever that entailed.

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This is the TDC tool I used, from Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67581

 

[Seventy]

I am glad you are getting there, and kudos to you for coming on here and manning up 10 points for Moparedtn

good for you man.. Now you were on the compression stroke right? lol...

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?99260-What-s-the-worst-that-could-happen I think a few of us told you to find tdc, I htink it may have been my first post in your thread, lol I wish you were closer, we could have thrown it on the lift and figured that out in 5 minutes...

 

[moparedtn]

I am glad you are getting there, and kudos to you for coming on here and manning up 10 points for Moparedtn

good for you man.. Now you were on the compression stroke right? lol...

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?99260-What-s-the-worst-that-could-happen I think a few of us told you to find tdc, I htink it may have been my first post in your thread, lol I wish you were closer, we could have thrown it on the lift and figured that out in 5 minutes...

Uhhhh, yeah, sure I was, yep. :edgy:
Actually, I do admit also to having the distributor cap off so I could watch the rotor approaching #1.
I also admit I had the piston stop tool set too short and went right by TDC the first time I tried this. :icon_profileright:

 

[Beekeeper]

Glad you check that timing mark finally lol. Jokes a side glad you found your problem and reported back here with what you found.

 

[Seventy]

Mine's more like a sporadic, once in a while sort of fine vibration - almost a hmmmmm of sorts, only at a certain RPM (IIRC, around 1700RPM or so).
Wish I could tell you what is in this engine, but it was built by the former (deceased) owner. He had decades of experience as a mechanic at their local Dodge dealer and was one of those who built engines for folks on the side.
All I could get out of the heir who sold it was "the original 440 cracked a block, so he took the guts and put it in this engine"...whatever that entailed.

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This is the TDC tool I used, from Summit:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67581

How much swearing was done under that hood lol...

 

[moparedtn]

How much swearing was done under that hood lol...

I admit to saying "HOLY SH@#" a couple times.
Then it dawned on me - In weeks before doing this, I kept thinking I was retarding the timing to the point of actually going to AFTER TDC and the car ran better.
Come to find out....well, the pic says it all. I mean heck, what is that, like 20 degrees difference?

Reminds me - I need to git over to Summit and fetch one of their balancers, STAT!

 

[dave dodge]

Good man..

Hi Ed, glad you finally found the problem. I'm sure it was a humbling experience. Crow isn't so bad after it is digested! It's been educational to all of us. Thank you.

 

[moparedtn]

Hi Ed, glad you finally found the problem. I'm sure it was a humbling experience. Crow isn't so bad after it is digested! It's been educational to all of us. Thank you.

Ummmm, crow frickassee. Not too bad, but the beaks and claws are a bit tough...

Still can't believe I whiffed the first time around with the TDC tool. Didn't have it set deep enough and the #1 piston just wizzed on by.

 

[SlinktRR]

Ummmm, crow frickassee. Not too bad, but the beaks and claws are a bit tough...

Still can't believe I whiffed the first time around with the TDC tool. Didn't have it set deep enough and the #1 piston just wizzed on by.

Glad you got it! You can use the "recalibrated" old balancer, the sharpie marks will read fine with a timing light. Mine slipped as well but I havent found the need to change it. If you kept receipts, start returning some parts!

 

[moparedtn]

Glad you got it! You can use the "recalibrated" old balancer, the sharpie marks will read fine with a timing light. Mine slipped as well but I havent found the need to change it. If you kept receipts, start returning some parts!

Too late. The new Summit balancer will be here tomorrow. Looking forward to it, actually, since theirs has timing marks all the way up to 60 degrees BTDC...but you know first thing I'm gonna do, right?
Yep - I'll be checking the NEW balancers' marks as well.

I'm also looking forward to seeing how the Edelbrock Thunder AVS does as well. Since it's the closest thing we can get to a brand new factory carb for these (the original Carter AVS is a dead ringer for these), I want to see how it fares against the Holley.

I'm thinking the Holley will be for sale here soon, as will one of these new distributors... we'll see, I reckon.

 

[SlinktRR]

I'm also looking forward to seeing how the Edelbrock Thunder AVS does as well. Since it's the closest thing we can get to a brand new factory carb for these (the original Carter AVS is a dead ringer for these), I want to see how it fares against the Holley.

I'm thinking the Holley will be for sale here soon, as will one of these new distributors... we'll see, I reckon.

If you drive your car on long trips you will like it. They are dead simple to tune and efficient. I remember this hot rod article where they took a 68 gtx and had an emissions guy test it, he commented on how well it ran at cruise.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1405-1968-plymouth-gtx-muscle-car-mpg/

The 440 got 12mpg with the 800cfm avs. I got 17 with the 650 on a 383.. So you might see 14-15.

 

[moparedtn]

If you drive your car on long trips you will like it. They are dead simple to tune and efficient. I remember this hot rod article where they took a 68 gtx and had an emissions guy test it, he commented on how well it ran at cruise.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/1405-1968-plymouth-gtx-muscle-car-mpg/
The 440 got 12mpg with the 800cfm avs. I got 17 with the 650 on a 383.. So you might see 14-15.

Thanks for the link. Kind of cool to see an original, unmolested version of my car.

I'm not as concerned with fuel economy as I am with drivability issues; probably like anyone else, I want a good, crisp throttle response right off idle (that I've gotten with past Holley 3310's, but not this one so far) and no surging during constant cruise speeds, as that article discusses.
These cars have a certain feel and sound to them when the air/fuel is juuuust right - you can hear it.
They'll drive just fine when they're set up a little fat on the fuel curve, but it isn't the same; an idle that will make your eyes water sucks to me, for example.
I'm thinking/hoping the Eddy will give me these things. Nothing wrong with a new Holley 750vac sec, but I'm thinking there's a more exact setup in the Eddy.

 

[dieseldazzle]

Thank god, finally ED.

Id use the holley I cant stand eddies

 

[1967coronet]

congrats old buddy !

 

[moparedtn]

Thank god, finally ED.
Id use the holley I cant stand eddies

I reckon I'm going to find out this weekend. Summit balancer arrived today (LOVE Summit, such a great company to do business with). Once I get that on, I'll check it for true TDC, then install new plugs and the Edelbrock.
May the best carb win!
Loser to be sold on FBBO.

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congrats old buddy !

Thanks again for all your help, Rip!