Leaf springs for handling

[Cranky]

I had the same question which I posed to FF when I was buying all of my front end stuff; the FR arms and the Borgeson box but they said they didn't know how that would work out. I am prepared to go to stock arms if it is crazy twitchy. So here is my build list;

1.12 T bars
Rebuilt rear springs using the stock springs and another set
Rear sliders with solid bushings
Adjustable front hangers with poly bushings
Hellwig tubular front and rear sway bars
11/16 tie rod ends
Adjustable and greaseable struts
Reinforced LCAs
QA1 Tubular UCAs
QA1 single adjustable shocks on all 4 corners
Assassin traction bars (don't start hating on me...)
Borgeson PS box
FF fast ratio pitman and idler arms
Wilwood 4 WDBs
Hydroboost brake booster
Welded/reinforced K frame
Full sub frame connectors
Inner fender braces
Lower radiator brace (homemade and super rigid)
Torque boxes

We will see how it all works out

What's the diameters of your sway bars (anti roll bars )?

 

[70chall440]

What's the diameters of your sway bars (anti roll bars )?

1 1/4 front and 7/8 rear

 

[Cranky]

1 1/4 front and 7/8 rear

Getting a bit serious are ya How much street driving are you planning to do?

 

[70chall440]

LOL yeah I know, I tend to over do it a bit but we will see how it works out.

 

[70chall440]

I hate to admit this, but for me the enjoyment is building the cars, I rarely drive any of my classic cars... I know I should and I get all of the discussion about doing just that but I generally don't go anywhere and its far easier to take one of my newer vehicles.

 

[Cranky]

I hate to admit this, but for me the enjoyment is building the cars, I rarely drive any of my classic cars... I know I should and I get all of the discussion about doing just that but I generally don't go anywhere and its far easier to take one of my newer vehicles.

When I bought my 71 340 Cuda in 86 I drove it a lot but alternated with my 66 Belvedere that I got in 88. The Cuda handled pretty good with the factory stuff (front and rear bars) but shocks, tires and better alignment made a noticeable difference. I lowered the Belvedere and gave it all the camber I could and man, couldn't believe how much better it was and that thing didn't have any bars on it but it didn't have nearly as much roll as I thought it would.

 

[Superbeemike]

Not sure if I ever updated my build thread but last year my stock P/S box died out at the track. I replaced it with the Borgeson Box/kit. I planned to put stock steering arms on when I put the new box in but I misplaced the originals and new were not available at the time. With another track day coming up (Oct 22’), I kept the fast ratio arms on the car. Honestly I love it. It’s fast but anyone can still drive it. Because I drive one handed (hanging on in a bench seat and the 4speed), it’s easier steering the car out on the track. I have videos on YouTube from our track days, here’s a link… https://youtube.com/@superbeemike3562

As you will see, I’m well above 100mph out there with this setup. It’s fine. If you don’t like it, it’s easy enough to go back.

Mike

 

[70chall440]

Excellent information, thanks.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Have you ever driven an AAR Cuda or TA Challenger...or any 71 340 powered E body as they got the same steering as the AAR's and TA's. I liked it on my 71 Cuda. It was 2 1/2 turns lock to lock. The only down side to mine was someone replaced the idler with a stock unit so it scrubbed on tight turns but didn't seem to bother anything if you weren't making a tight turn. Was just wondering how these might have compared to yours.

No, have not driven either of those, but would love the chance to if I could be so blessed!

 

[Kern Dog]

The story was, the "Fast Ratio" steering in the E body cars was only a longer Pitman arm. The idler arm was the same length as any other E body.

 

[Cranky]

The story was, the "Fast Ratio" steering in the E body cars was only a longer Pitman arm. The idler arm was the same length as any other E body.

I've heard that too over the years but man, the tires scrubbed bad when near the lock. Would think an idler that was at least closer to the same as the pitman would work much better.....

 

[70chall440]

Id have to go and look again but I am pretty sure that the FR idler arm is shorter, mixing FR and non FR arms typically is not a good idea as I recall. If I remember I will go and look at the arms I have and try and get a pic.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

Id have to go and look again but I am pretty sure that the FR idler arm is shorter, mixing FR and non FR arms typically is not a good idea as I recall. If I remember I will go and look at the arms I have and try and get a pic.

I've never installed this combo, but I've read for a long time that the biggest benefit when doing a fast ratio swap is only one of the arms due to the way they mount up. Firm Feel offers both, but I believe the same benefit can be had from just the longer pitman arm swap (as the 71 cudas had). The idler and pitman are not identical, so it makes sense to me that swapping both may not be required.

online definition: The pitman arm is attached to the gearbox; it turns the center link as the driver steers the vehicle. The idler arm provides for swivel movement and resists up and down movement

 

[Cranky]

I've never installed this combo, but I've read for a long time that the biggest benefit when doing a fast ratio swap is only one of the arms due to the way they mount up. Firm Feel offers both, but I believe the same benefit can be had from just the longer pitman arm swap (as the 71 cudas had). The idler and pitman are not identical, so it makes sense to me that swapping both may not be required.

online definition: The pitman arm is attached to the gearbox; it turns the center link as the driver steers the vehicle. The idler arm provides for swivel movement and resists up and down movement

It's works well enough but I wonder if the scrub would be reduced by a significant amount using the longer idler.....? I'm mean there's a 'lot' of scrub with the short idler. It starts to scrub once you turn like 50% either way and the more you turn, the worse it gets.

 

[70chall440]

As promised I went and found the parts pieces and here is what I found (measurements are taken with a tape measure so they probably are not "dead nuts" and they are from center of the pin to the center of the hole)

Pitman arm
Stock = 6"
Fast Ratio = 7"

Idler Arm
Stock = 5 3/8"
Fast Ratio = 6 7/8"

I am not positive but I feel that mixing and matching would not be good overall as the center link would be "canted".

 

[Cranky]

As promised I went and found the parts pieces and here is what I found (measurements are taken with a tape measure so they probably are not "dead nuts" and they are from center of the pin to the center of the hole)

Pitman arm
Stock = 6"
Fast Ratio = 7"

Idler Arm
Stock = 5 3/8"
Fast Ratio = 6 7/8"

I am not positive but I feel that mixing and matching would not be good overall as the center link would be "canted".
View attachment 1443528View attachment 1443529

Don't think it matters much if the drag link is canted some as it's still going to move left and right. I noticed mine was that way and checked to make sure it wasn't hitting anything or even close to hitting something. I couldn't find a fast ratio idler at the dealer back then so I'm thinking either they didn't have any in stock anymore or it's true that the cars came that way in 71. Was the production run on the TA's and AAR's a special run on the idlers or were they built with the standard idler too?

Heck, I tried to find one that was longer from the local auto parts and no luck there. It just didn't look right under the car with that canted drag link lol but it did just fine on the road and on the few twisties that are around here. The car handled pretty dang good for a basically stock suspension. Been in a few Corvettes since the early 70's and several Vipers so I'm not exactly illiterate on handling and always did what I could with what I had available to make my cars handle better (without breaking the bank) than what the factory was shoving at us. My dad had a 69 440 New Yorker that was a total sponge box but that 440 sure had some spunk!

 

[Kern Dog]

An idler arm for a 1970 C body is remarkably similar to the longer “Fast Ratio” idler.

 

[70chall440]

@Cranky I completely agree and now thinking about it I remember buying a TA pitman arm from my local Dodge/Plymouth dealer and putting on my 74 Challenger. I remember being happy with the result but I did not change the idler arm. I had an AAR but never measured anything so I cannot say.

As to the 71 deal, I have no doubt that some 71 E bodies got left over TA/AAR stuff but I do not think it was wholesale as in every E body got it because I have worked on a couple over the years which did not and they were still factory equipped.

Since the TA/AAR program was canceled and we know that at one time there was plans to carry it over to 71, its not a stretch to think that someone on the inventory side ordered inventory to support it only to be told it was canceled leaving "stranded inventory" which no doubt was put on the 71 cars to exhaust it.

 

[Cranky]

@Cranky I completely agree and now thinking about it I remember buying a TA pitman arm from my local Dodge/Plymouth dealer and putting on my 74 Challenger. I remember being happy with the result but I did not change the idler arm. I had an AAR but never measured anything so I cannot say.

As to the 71 deal, I have no doubt that some 71 E bodies got left over TA/AAR stuff but I do not think it was wholesale as in every E body got it because I have worked on a couple over the years which did not and they were still factory equipped.

Since the TA/AAR program was canceled and we know that at one time there was plans to carry it over to 71, its not a stretch to think that someone on the inventory side ordered inventory to support it only to be told it was canceled leaving "stranded inventory" which no doubt was put on the 71 cars to exhaust it.

Several years back I read that the 71 e-body cars with 340s only got the TA steering set up as part of the 340 performance package....

 

[ckessel]

Since Pittman arms are the current subject, anyone know what the Moog number is for a 70 with the large shaft? The one I had went with the package of engine/trans/suspension/steering/k-frame some time back. I do have a FR one from FF but no idler to match. Want to have the standard to complete what I have for normal and also pick up a FR idler to try for later after all is together.