Making the switch to a roller cam and lifters in a classic Big Block

[Kern Dog]

Hello all,
I was getting ready to install the roller rocker arm kit and measure for a set of pushrods when I thought of something.
If I order the pushrods and install them on the 440/493, they won't work if I decide to go with a solid flat tappet or a roller camshaft. Theres $200 wasted, right?

Here are the specs of my engine, for those that haven't read any of my other posts:
440 block, .030 over with a 4.15 stroke. Edelbrock RPM heads 84cc heads. Edelbrock Performer RPM intake, Demon 850 VS carb with 85/92 jets. TTI 2" headers 2 1/2" exhaust.
Calculated compression ratio of 10.73 to 1. 292/509 camshaft installed straight up. 160 thermostat.
727 with 9 3/4" converter, Gear Vendors OD, 3.91 gears.
I looked at a few websites and landed on the Hughes Engines site. They don't list any specs for their solid roller cams because they are supposed to be custom ground. Since I will be using the Mancini/Harland Sharp rocker arms, I could go with a solid or hydraulic roller. I'm not sure which way to go here. As stated elsewhere, this is not an all out race engine. I like to drive the car more than up and down a dragstrip. I've made 3 trips of around 1000 miles and intend to do more. Setting valve lash once or twice a year wouldn't bother me if there was a performance or durability gain to be had. In truth, I am not totally convinced that a roller cam is necessary. I have read about EDM lifters that provide better oiling between the lifters and lobes as well as the "Pro-Plasma" treatment offered by Comp cams.

My intended goals may sound far fetched to some, but I hope that they are attainable. I want to be able to run strong on pump gasoline in 40-100 degree weather. I want to be able to drive the car short and long distances and get reasonable fuel economy. I've seen 12.5 mpg with the current combo. If I lost a little of economy but gained power and had less or NO detonation, I'd be quite happy with that.

I've read in Andy Finkbieners book about 600 HP 500 inch engine builds. Am I knocking on the door of 500 or more HP with the right cam even with UNported heads?
If I decided to drag race the car, what range of ET and MPH could be expected in a 4000 lb B body with 3.91 gears? Is it possible to get into the 11s with a combo like mine?

 

[cdr]

i am going flat tappet for a couple of reasons 1. roller cam have to use a bronze gear on oil pump shaft 2. there can be lifter bore problems when converting to a roller, i am going with short travel tooled steel flat tap,,made by trend just my opinion after lots of research

http://trendperform.com/

EC904CH-2H .904 Diameter - Oil hole in foot, low movement

 

[Kern Dog]

I'm going to make some calls tomorrow, but in the meantime I found a cam grind that looks promising:
Comp Cams # 294H 250 I @ .050 256 E @ .050 .519 I 524 E. With my 1.6 rocker arms, that moves it up to .553/558. I looked at the lifters from Comp and was a bit confused. The 822 lifters are priced around $80 and have a wide oil band, The 824 are almost double at $134 and have a thin oil band. What difference would the deigns make? Would the thin band lead to MORE oil pressure to the top end? Would the thicker oil band bleed off pressure?

 

[cdr]

do NOT USE COMP LIFTERS,if you want a great standard lifter use the johnson lifter
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,95605.msg1094731.html#msg1094731

- - - Updated - - -

also on the cam i would call bullet cams & talk to them,with all the pinging problems you have had they can help you !!!!!!

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...eDkbwOOj-pQbwhA&bvm=bv.48293060,d.eWU&cad=rja

 

[Kern Dog]

Thank you for the suggestion about the Johnson lifters. I'll call them today.

 

[Supershafts]

Get a roller don't even waste your time with flat cams, and i had already told you where to keep the specs and where to look and you're still not really listening... IN THE 260@50 area is the bottom for what you want with what you have.

 

[Kern Dog]

I thank everyone for their help, but nobody should be offended or angry because I don't jump in and take their advice. I have made some questionable choices in the past based on impulse. As I mentioned elsewhere, I recently learned the cam specs of the '509. Using the static and dynamic compression calculator, I can see in mathmatical terms how the later intake closing affects things. The 58 degree # of the '509 leaves me with a 8.99 Dynamic ratio. The Comp cam 294H has an intake closing of 73 degrees resulting in a 7.99 Dynamic ratio.
I do want to express gratitude for the responses. They are appreciated.

 

[Supershafts]

You keep making the mistake that you're building a 440 (umpteen others also), you no longer have anything 440 other than the outside package and visual appearance... nothing about your set up is wanting what you're looking at, or going to perform to WHAT IT SHOULD, you are beyond off the shelf for 440 cams, sure you can use it , but it's not right, you could easily make more hp then you are looking for but you're not.
I am not mad nor angry, it is not my car but i'd rather see you in the 700+h area rather than 550h
I have a 4200 lb car, very similar bottom end same comp just about also except im slightly higher (11.2), streetable and will run in the 10's on a flat punch and holding a lazy 3rd gear cruise to the line, also w/gv but 4.3 gear, other than custom headers w/ 2.12/.25 pri to a 4" merge coll and i also use the large I heads you can be doing similar (some machining differences im sure and parts used) .
I am simply trying to point you in a better direction.

 

[Kern Dog]

What do you think of this cam?

http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...&level2=Um9sbGVyLCBIeWRyYXVsaWM=&partid=24184

I'll be using the 1.6 ratio rockers for the increased lift.

Then there is THIS one, a bit more aggressive:
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...RyYXVsaWM=&searchmode=partnumber&partid=24186

I called Hughes a moment ago to talk tech. Of COURSE their tech guys are away for the weekend at the INDY Mopar shindig...

 

[Supershafts]

Both of those cams are not what i would use, i would go to 108/106cl 268 to 280, 600+ , i would not be looking at hughes, you need to call cam companies like comp, bullet and speak with them about special custom grinds, you won't find the right cam in a catalog nor anything like mine.
If you think youre gonna lose low end or something because how wild the cam is, you won't

 

[IQ52]

I'm going to make some calls tomorrow, but in the meantime I found a cam grind that looks promising:
Comp Cams # 294H 250 I @ .050 256 E @ .050 .519 I 524 E. With my 1.6 rocker arms, that moves it up to .553/558. I looked at the lifters from Comp and was a bit confused. The 822 lifters are priced around $80 and have a wide oil band, The 824 are almost double at $134 and have a thin oil band. What difference would the deigns make? Would the thin band lead to MORE oil pressure to the top end? Would the thicker oil band bleed off pressure?

Aargh, the 824 lifter is the low performance (like the 822) but for the early engines ('58-'67) with the very small (smaller than 5/16) ball end on the pushrod.

- - - Updated - - -

I thank everyone for their help, but nobody should be offended or angry because I don't jump in and take their advice. I have made some questionable choices in the past based on impulse. As I mentioned elsewhere, I recently learned the cam specs of the '509. Using the static and dynamic compression calculator, I can see in mathmatical terms how the later intake closing affects things. The 58 degree # of the '509 leaves me with a 8.99 Dynamic ratio. The Comp cam 294H has an intake closing of 73 degrees resulting in a 7.99 Dynamic ratio.
I do want to express gratitude for the responses. They are appreciated.

The 294H has an intake closing point of 51 degrees @ .050" and will give you a dynamic of 8.5:1 compression. Still too close to detonation without some very fine timing curve work. Doesn't anyone call Comp Cams and just ask them what the cam timing really is?

NEVER thought I would say this but, I COMPLETELY agree with Supershafts.

 

[Kern Dog]

Doesn't anyone call Comp Cams and just ask them what the cam timing really is?

NEVER thought I would say this but, I COMPLETELY agree with Supershafts.

Yeah... I HAVE called Comp twice and received low performance answers for my high performance engine. I got my numbers from the Comp cams website becaust I have had strange luck with their tech guys.
Remember elsewhere I mentioned that ONE of their guys suggested that I keep the '509 cam because it would be fine. Another guy said that switching flat tappet lifters shouldn't be a problem if the engine only had a few hours of run time on it. It is because of this that I am hesitant to trust them. Maybe I had the strange luck of getting the least qualified tech guy each time I have called?

 

[IQ52]

I would NEVER call the cam help line for a camshaft recommendation, only for hard facts on durations, lifts, and dimensions like diameters, thicknesses.

Comp had NO IDEA that if you used their cam gears on a Ford engine with a torrington thrust bearing retention plate, it would have .085" crush on the thrust bearings. Without that knowledge, it takes about 30 seconds to wipe out the bearings and twist the locating pin on the camshaft right in half.

They have some really sharp people in the back offices like Chris and Billy but the guys who answer the front phones on the helpline generally leave much to be desired. When I was 13 years old I think I knew more than they did if they didn't have the computor in their face. I asked Comp for a dimension on the above cam gear and it took 24 hours to measure one. I called Cloyes and they had access to the design drawings and I had my answer in 40 seconds. I buy a lot of Comp stuff but I NEVER ask them for a recommendation, I tell them what I want.

 

[Supershafts]

Yes listen to IQ52 you gotta talk with a real cam person at those places, usually, well with big companies like that the 1st person that answers is not who you want.

You're gonna wind up with something not listed in any catalog, unless its something from utradynes old roller catalogs then you might want that, you can see Bullet cams for that

 

[snakeoil24]

1. If you decide to go with a roller cam stay with either of 2 companies only.

A. Crane
B. Comp Cams

For either company you can use this Lifters that will work fine on a street motor. make sure you specify the lower band Lifters to avoid oil supply issues. Crane offers a Steel cam gear that replaces the need for bronze gear. Make sure you still use Hi Zinc/Moly Oil. Crane is the number one choice and Comp is a close second. In addition use Steel rocker arms. Aluminum look very nice but for the street it is simply easier to use steel. Hydraulic Rollers require different ramp accelerations than solid rollers. So becareful to look at this closely. Dont chince on Timing chain use a roll master or better. Timing chain cover should be reinforced for cam button and a torrington behind the sprocket is a good idea. When spring pressure starts to get heavy then nothing lasts for long.

 

[IQ52]

Ouch, don't expect a consensus on the cam choices above either. Most of my roller cams are custom ground by Erson, not on their recommendation, but by what I select from their lobe lists.

I've used one of the new Crane gears. It is a pain to install but it seems to be working and wearing well after some 70 dyno runs on a solid street roller cam of approximately 256/260 degrees @ .050".

 

[451Mopar]

After trying a hydraulic roller in the 505" 440, I'm not all that impressed. I thought it would be quieter than it is, but I may be hearing the roller thrust button or rocker arms?
My old 451 engine had a mild "street" solid roller from Ultradyne that could go years between valve lash adjustments. The bronze (Mopar performance) oil pump drive lasted a long time too, and I used a solid thrust button on that engine. On my 505, I think the stock timing chain cover amplifies the roller sound of the roller thrust button and timing gear thrust bearing? There is nothing wrong with using flat tappet cams as long as you use a good speciality oil with the additional ZDDP, like the Joe Gibbs oil.