Need Help - Advise: Clueless about my first time engine buy and selling my engine

Paul Boucher

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So guys, firstly I would love some help/advise about buying a prebuilt motor and transmission, and selling mine. I was never able to get into any mechanical stuff with my dad before he passed and have 0 experience with motors/transmissions. I have the opportunity to buy a prebuilt date code motor and transmission for my R/T to bring it back more original, which for my build, 9-8-66, is very hard to find. The build date on the motor I could buy is 8-10-66. However, I don't have a clue about what questions to ask, or things to look out for. I have discussed with my uncle, a 40 year body man who has restored many Mopars over the years, but he freely admits that he is not an engine guy and can only help a little. His biggest concern being that the block is bored 0.060 over. From what I have read that may, or may not be an issue.

I did speak with the guy selling, did a little research, and he does run a mopar restoration shop, and the motor was built by an engine builder who also drag races. So, I do know that this was not built in a back woods garage somewhere, if that helps. My uncle was not privy to this information when he read the listing. I do plan to discuss this with him as well, and see if he will call the engine builder.

What would I be looking at to finish the set up to be able to install; parts and cost wise? I know I would need carb, alternator, ignition, starter, plugs and wires, but anything else I should be aware of? Can I use what I have on my current motor, or should I include that when selling?

Additional information: I do have two sets of C440 HP blocks, 915 heads, crankshafts, correct 67 exhaust manifolds, but no other parts that I have the option to build from scratch (or sell), but they are not date code correct for my car. Would I be better off building from scratch and am I too hung up on the date code?

I have listed the specs and pics from the listing below. I would really appreciate any feed back, advise, concerns, hesitancies you guys have that could help me make a more informed decision.

I understand the basics, but above that really don't know what I am looking at here, and as always thank you guys for your help, it is ALWAYS appreciated!

Engine listing:
For sale- Freshly rebuilt, 1967 440 HP engine, the later valve covers are installed to keep it clean, the factory chrome covers are included but they need replated (AMD reproduces them but they're on backorder), this is about 10.0-1 compression, the cam is a Comp #21-223-4 w/268/280 duration & .477/.480 lift, it is .060 over, KB pistons, when I got it, the bottom end was recently rebuilt, I had Randy Beyer of Beyer Racing Engines (40 years plus experience) take the bottom end apart for inspection, go through the heads & rest of the top end, I installed a new bearing & seal in the water pump, I acquired the correct exhaust manifolds w/new heat riser & hardware, A mint restored 67 air cleaner is included, correct intake, new motor mounts, new plug wire looms, throttle return spring bracket etc., primed & painted it with eurothane paint (I know, mopar used enamel but this will last). I did not install the throttle cable bracket as I don't know if the buyer will use an auto or 4 speed ( a little touch up paint is included). The casting date is 7-7-66 & the machine date is 8-10-66.

293192353_2047147678803625_5775281661615128637_n.jpg
293116733_2047148992136827_1906367820549147813_n.jpg



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290493222_3478531062374573_3413668540663722606_n.jpg
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67-440-hp-invoice.jpg


Secondly, in order to help offset the cost I plan to sell the 66 383 and transmission that came with my car. Again, I have no experience and can't find much in my research as to what would be a fair asking price. It has a 750CMF Holley Street Avenger, Lunati Cam (I can pull the specs off the box), and 2400 stall converter. That is about all I know. Here are some pics for reference. Again, any advise or input on what to be aware of would really help.

IMG_7340.jpg
IMG_7341.jpg
IMG_7342.jpg


I know I have packed a lot in here. Again, you guys and being part of this community are GREATLY appreciated!

Paul
 
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Snook

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Intakes and distributors will not swap, yours is a B and the other is a RB. Everything else will swap but I'd sell yours complete as a runner but check your heads and make sure you are not letting a pair of 915's pass you by. Are the small chamber 915's on the motor you're looking at? 0.060" over is pushing it. That's what my current engine is and I'm building another standard block - I'll use the 0.060 engine to wring stuff out but it's history as soon as I finish this one. You could always sleeve the block though, mines not worth it.

Chuck (snook)
 

HawkRod

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Hi Paul,

Here are a few random thoughts of mine (in no particular order):
  • For you, the right date code seems important, and it makes your car that much nicer. Although it would cost some money, if needed you could even sleeve the .060" engine. The right date codes are hard to find, so if the price is not unreasonable, I would make my best deal on this.
  • I would not be afraid of a properly checked and built .060" over 440. The key terms there are "properly checked" and "built". If a block has significant core shift, then some bores can be thin on one side. You especially don't want thin bores on the thrust sides of the bores (the thrust side of the bores are the right side of all bores as viewed from the back of the engine).
  • Opposite of my above statement, I presume that you are not going to be drag racing this car and engine. So concerns about wall thickness are reduced vs. an engine that makes 700 HP and gets beat on down the quarter mile.
  • If I was going to buy an engine without rebuilding it, I would much rather buy an engine that had 1000 mile on it or so, as it shows it was at least done well enough to go 1000 miles without destroying itself. This appears to be a fresh rebuild that has never been run. It could be perfectly rebuilt, or it could have lots of mistakes made during the construction.
  • If you can talk to the builder, I would ask if a honing plate was used when the block was honed to its final size. A honing plate is a big thick piece of steel that is bolted to the engine block. It mimics a head being bolted to the block, and it distorts the block similar to the way a head would distort the block when installed. This way you are assured you get round cylinders with the head bolted on the engine. This technique is much better than not using a honing plate. I would also ask if he checked core shift or wall thickness.
  • Assuming my assumption is correct that this is rebuilt but never run, I would pull the engine apart, at least partially, and check things. An easy first clue is how well has the cam and lifters been coated with appropriate starting lube? If not done, this engine likely has problems in other areas.
  • So bottom line on the 440: There is no other way around it but to say buying this engine is a gamble. But, it is the correct date code, so then you just need to decide if you want to fire it and take a chance, or pull it completely apart after buying it and be sure.
On selling your other engine:
  • Anyone buying this engine will be subject to the same gamble that you have buying the 440. If the engine is broken in and runs well that is better in my book. Having a prospective buyer hear the engine run is great if you can. Having a prospective buyer be able to drive it is even better. If engine and transmission run and shift smoothly, this reduces a buyers concerns that there are problems with them.
  • You can use starter, alternator, etc. (basically all bolt on parts except the distributor) from your 383 and use them on your 440. I would suggest you sell the 383 engine without those items and reuse them (or sell them later when you have application correct units to replace them with).
Good Luck,

Hawk
 

1967coronet

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Like hawk posted, its a gamble.
I got to ask... Are you just wanting more engine or is there a problem with the 383?
To me ( date code correct ) is just a term for not the original motor. At that point its no different than a 76 block.
Good luck on whatever route you go.
 

YY1

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"Date correct" means a hell of a lot more on a 67 or earlier car.

It basically means- "the original engine", unlike 68 and up, which had VIN stamps.

Plus a 383 is not correct for the OP's R/T.

"60 over" is not unheard of the the engine rebuilding world.
However, you might not get another re-ring job out of it if that becomes necessary.
 

Dave6T4

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A .060" oversize block is at the end of its life, if anything goes wrong. It can not be bored again, without sleeving all cylinders. Unless you plan on taking your car to concours, judged shows, the matching numbers obsession is overkill. My 1967 R/T has been running for the last 30 years with a power train that I pulled from a 1968 New Yorker, because that was the best deal that I could find at the time. It was a complete, running engine and transmission. I had the 440 rebuilt to Magnum spec's, and rebuilt the 727. That was about 68,000 miles ago. I have attended many shows over that time, and have won many awards with this R/T, including a couple on the Carlisle Fun Field. In all that time, absolutely NO ONE has looked for matching numbers. Again, just my $0.02.
 

1967coronet

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"Date correct" means a hell of a lot more on a 67 or earlier car.

It basically means- "the original engine", unlike 68 and up, which had VIN stamps.

Plus a 383 is not correct for the OP's R/T.

"60 over" is not unheard of the the engine rebuilding world.
However, you might not get another re-ring job out of it if that becomes necessary.
Yes I know the 383 is not correct for the R/T,
I guess the only point I was making is once the original engine is long gone I myself would not pay any extra for another 66 engine.
I know in 67 there is no vin on the block. I just don't see how you get to ( basically means original engine ) when its not.
Thats one of the problems with this hobby after the money got big.
My old 67 is miles away from original anything. :drinks:
 

YY1

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Yes I know the 383 is not correct for the R/T,
I guess the only point I was making is once the original engine is long gone I myself would not pay any extra for another 66 engine.
I know in 67 there is no vin on the block. I just don't see how you get to ( basically means original engine ) when its not.
Thats one of the problems with this hobby after the money got big.
My old 67 is miles away from original anything. :drinks:

Getting from "no VIN stamping on block" and "date code in range for body date" to "good as or identical to original engine" which can't be proved not to be ..... is purely logical. In fact it's relatively easy.
 

Paul Boucher

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@HawkRod
Hi Paul,

Here are a few random thoughts of mine (in no particular order):
  • For you, the right date code seems important, and it makes your car that much nicer. Although it would cost some money, if needed you could even sleeve the .060" engine. The right date codes are hard to find, so if the price is not unreasonable, I would make my best deal on this. I do feel it's important and am kind of a purist in this regard. I think it would be nice, but as many have said probably doesn't really matter in the long run. I know it's nothing special and super rare like a '71 Hemi Cuda, so does it really matter?
  • I would not be afraid of a properly checked and built .060" over 440. The key terms there are "properly checked" and "built". If a block has significant core shift, then some bores can be thin on one side. You especially don't want thin bores on the thrust sides of the bores (the thrust side of the bores are the right side of all bores as viewed from the back of the engine). I have been doing some more research on this and most things I have read said to have them sonically (SP?) checked for this to be sure, and I am pretty sure it wasn't. I plan to ask the builder.
  • Opposite of my above statement, I presume that you are not going to be drag racing this car and engine. So concerns about wall thickness are reduced vs. an engine that makes 700 HP and gets beat on down the quarter mile. Nope, just looking to bring it back to more original and have some more power to sling my son into the back of the seat a little and the occasional burn out, haha! But, if I am every at a show at a drag strip (Rockingham, Piedmont, Farmington) it would be nice not to be worried to take it down the track a time or two for some fun.
  • If I was going to buy an engine without rebuilding it, I would much rather buy an engine that had 1000 mile on it or so, as it shows it was at least done well enough to go 1000 miles without destroying itself. This appears to be a fresh rebuild that has never been run. It could be perfectly rebuilt, or it could have lots of mistakes made during the construction. That was my uncles exact statement as well. I did ask that and it has not been run. I don't know much about engines, but this to me seemed like common sense and have the same hesitation about not knowing if it actually functions properly.
  • If you can talk to the builder, I would ask if a honing plate was used when the block was honed to its final size. A honing plate is a big thick piece of steel that is bolted to the engine block. It mimics a head being bolted to the block, and it distorts the block similar to the way a head would distort the block when installed. This way you are assured you get round cylinders with the head bolted on the engine. This technique is much better than not using a honing plate. I would also ask if he checked core shift or wall thickness. Thank you for the information. I have not heard about a honing plate. This makes complete sense and may help indicate any skipped steps or level of quality in the build. I will definitely ask.
  • Assuming my assumption is correct that this is rebuilt but never run, I would pull the engine apart, at least partially, and check things. An easy first clue is how well has the cam and lifters been coated with appropriate starting lube? If not done, this engine likely has problems in other areas. I was also thinking that I would probably need to find a builder somewhere close to have them tear into it to inspect and check it which would be additional cost, and at that point am I just better off building one of the two blocks I already have. Probably is the way I am thinking.
  • So bottom line on the 440: There is no other way around it but to say buying this engine is a gamble. But, it is the correct date code, so then you just need to decide if you want to fire it and take a chance, or pull it completely apart after buying it and be sure.
On selling your other engine:
  • Anyone buying this engine will be subject to the same gamble that you have buying the 440. If the engine is broken in and runs well that is better in my book. Having a prospective buyer hear the engine run is great if you can. Having a prospective buyer be able to drive it is even better. If engine and transmission run and shift smoothly, this reduces a buyers concerns that there are problems with them. Engine is running in the car now. Would it be best to leave it in until if listing it? I would assume so. Any rough idea on a fair asking price? Again I have no clue of what would even be close.
  • You can use starter, alternator, etc. (basically all bolt on parts except the distributor) from your 383 and use them on your 440. I would suggest you sell the 383 engine without those items and reuse them (or sell them later when you have application correct units to replace them with). OK good deal. I do have an electronic distributor for a 440 I bought from a member in anticipation of building one of my blocks.
Good Luck,

Hawk
 
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Paul Boucher

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@YY1 This is what I think as well when considering "Date Correct". 67s have this ability to more easily be brought to originality and preserved. Unfortunately over time (with all years) this has gotten harder and will only continue to get harder. I do thinks it's always worth keeping an eye on and if the right opportunity presents itself to consider it. Exactly why I created this post.

"Date correct" means a hell of a lot more on a 67 or earlier car.

It basically means- "the original engine", unlike 68 and up, which had VIN stamps.

Plus a 383 is not correct for the OP's R/T.

"60 over" is not unheard of the the engine rebuilding world.
However, you might not get another re-ring job out of it if that becomes necessary.
 

Paul Boucher

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Great point! I know my car is not "pedigree" so I know it's not something that needs to be done. No concours here, haha! I like the idea of date correct, but in the back of my mind know it probably really doesn't matter.
Unless you plan on taking your car to concours, judged shows, the matching numbers obsession is overkill. My 1967 R/T has been running for the last 30 years with a power train that I pulled from a 1968 New Yorker, because that was the best deal that I could find at the time. It was a complete, running engine and transmission. I had the 440 rebuilt to Magnum spec's, and rebuilt the 727. That was about 68,000 miles ago. I have attended many shows over that time, and have won many awards with this R/T, including a couple on the Carlisle Fun Field. In all that time, absolutely NO ONE has looked for matching numbers. Again, just my $0.02.
 

HawkRod

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Paul, I re-pasted my text (in black) with your comments (in red) along with my responses (in blue).


Here are a few random thoughts of mine (in no particular order):
  • For you, the right date code seems important, and it makes your car that much nicer. Although it would cost some money, if needed you could even sleeve the .060" engine. The right date codes are hard to find, so if the price is not unreasonable, I would make my best deal on this. I do feel it's important and am kind of a purist in this regard. I think it would be nice, but as many have said probably doesn't really matter in the long run. I know it's nothing special and super rare like a '71 Hemi Cuda, so does it really matter? Yes, I think it does. If the build date is a good match for your car, I would go after it unless your budget will absolutely not allow it. At some point, if you decide to sell your car, this makes it worth more money. I would never lie to anyone, but facts are facts, and date code correct is better than not date code correct and will be more valuable. 4 speed 67 GTXs are hard to find as my personal observation seems to be that most 67 GTXs were automatics. My opinion is it is worth it for that car.
  • I would not be afraid of a properly checked and built .060" over 440. The key terms there are "properly checked" and "built". If a block has significant core shift, then some bores can be thin on one side. You especially don't want thin bores on the thrust sides of the bores (the thrust side of the bores are the right side of all bores as viewed from the back of the engine). I have been doing some more research on this and most things I have read said to have them sonically (SP?) checked for this to be sure, and I am pretty sure it wasn't. I plan to ask the builder. To me, this is not a deal breaker for a near stock rebuild. Yes, ideal if it was done, but I'm not sure I would walk away from a correct block because it wasn't.
  • Opposite of my above statement, I presume that you are not going to be drag racing this car and engine. So concerns about wall thickness are reduced vs. an engine that makes 700 HP and gets beat on down the quarter mile. Nope, just looking to bring it back to more original and have some more power to sling my son into the back of the seat a little and the occasional burn out, haha! But, if I am every at a show at a drag strip (Rockingham, Piedmont, Farmington) it would be nice not to be worried to take it down the track a time or two for some fun. A build always assumes full throttle fun, including down an occasional drag strip. With a near stock rebuild, I again would be less concerned about wall thickness and core shift. That doesn't mean you won't have an issue, but I think the chances are low.
  • If I was going to buy an engine without rebuilding it, I would much rather buy an engine that had 1000 mile on it or so, as it shows it was at least done well enough to go 1000 miles without destroying itself. This appears to be a fresh rebuild that has never been run. It could be perfectly rebuilt, or it could have lots of mistakes made during the construction. That was my uncles exact statement as well. I did ask that and it has not been run. I don't know much about engines, but this to me seemed like common sense and have the same hesitation about not knowing if it actually functions properly. With is not being run you have less information that tells you it was an appropriate build. If it was just rebuilt, will the shop that rebuilt it stand by some kind of warranty? If they are a reputable shop, they may very well do so. This would give you some peace of mind.
  • If you can talk to the builder, I would ask if a honing plate was used when the block was honed to its final size. A honing plate is a big thick piece of steel that is bolted to the engine block. It mimics a head being bolted to the block, and it distorts the block similar to the way a head would distort the block when installed. This way you are assured you get round cylinders with the head bolted on the engine. This technique is much better than not using a honing plate. I would also ask if he checked core shift or wall thickness. Thank you for the information. I have not heard about a honing plate. This makes complete sense and may help indicate any skipped steps or level of quality in the build. I will definitely ask. Again, not using a honing plate does not mean the build is junk. But a honing plate provides a more precise bore. It is a measure, in my opinion, of the shop that did the work.
  • Assuming my assumption is correct that this is rebuilt but never run, I would pull the engine apart, at least partially, and check things. An easy first clue is how well has the cam and lifters been coated with appropriate starting lube? If not done, this engine likely has problems in other areas. I was also thinking that I would probably need to find a builder somewhere close to have them tear into it to inspect and check it which would be additional cost, and at that point am I just better off building one of the two blocks I already have. Probably is the way I am thinking. Not sure I agree with you. You can certainly do that. But you can also bring it home and take off the oil pan and maybe the intake manifold. These are pretty easy to do. Then you can inspect it for cleanliness and appropriate startup lube. If good, seal it up and take your chances. Life is a gamble sometimes. (Better yet, if the rebuild shop provides some kind of warranty you can just run it.)
  • So bottom line on the 440: There is no other way around it but to say buying this engine is a gamble. But, it is the correct date code, so then you just need to decide if you want to fire it and take a chance, or pull it completely apart after buying it and be sure.
On selling your other engine:
  • Anyone buying this engine will be subject to the same gamble that you have buying the 440. If the engine is broken in and runs well that is better in my book. Having a prospective buyer hear the engine run is great if you can. Having a prospective buyer be able to drive it is even better. If engine and transmission run and shift smoothly, this reduces a buyers concerns that there are problems with them. Engine is running in the car now. Would it be best to leave it in until if listing it? I would assume so. Any rough idea on a fair asking price? Again I have no clue of what would even be close. Absolutely best to leave it running in the car. This way you can ask more money for it because you can prove it runs well without knocks, blowing oil, etc. People will give lots of different advice on the value of the engine. A core 383 can go for as little as $400, but a nicely built 383 can cost $6000 and even more. The value of your engine to someone else depends on what you can prove to a buyer it is (like it runs well). Also, paperwork proving what parts it has in it is a benefit.
  • You can use starter, alternator, etc. (basically all bolt on parts except the distributor) from your 383 and use them on your 440. I would suggest you sell the 383 engine without those items and reuse them (or sell them later when you have application correct units to replace them with). OK good deal. I do have an electronic distributor for a 440 I bought from a member in anticipation of building one of my blocks. Good, so you are all set there.
 

Paul Boucher

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This I completely agree with. I am sort of a traditionalist and like brining my R/T back more original, but only for that perspective. Don't really care about the resale value. It's not about that with me. I grew up with Mopars with my dad and family. I bought mine before my dad passed to spend some time with him and now with my son. But when I first started looking several years ago almost crapped my pants when I saw the prices! I was a kid when my dad an uncles had, or were restoring, their cars and you could pick one up for $3k-5k. And parts were reasonable. Now everyone thinks they have GOLD! I call it the Barret Jackson syndrome.

Thats one of the problems with this hobby after the money got big.
 

Paul Boucher

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Thank you everyone for the input and feedback! I think you pretty much confirmed what I was thinking, and what my uncle advised. Consensus being while appealing because of the date code this is a pure gamble, and a pretty big gamble due to being 60 over and never having been run. And if I want to reduce my chances of an issues I would at the least need to have it torn down and checked, and most likely sleeved (which would cost considerably more) if I want to add any longevity to it.


He's asking $7500 and from what I have researched, I should be able to take what I have now, buy the needed parts, and be able to build one of my blocks at close to that price or just a little more (I think. Let me know if I am way out of the ball park.). Doing this would most likely not end up at 60 over, and would know it's been built right. Even though it's not "date code" correct it would still be an era correct engine.
 

Paul Boucher

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I wish him luck. Unless he has a guarantee to go with the engine along with a lot more detailed parts list/ receipts, I believe he will have a hard time selling that engine for that price.
Hawk, that's what I felt. He does have all dated parts, but it really only has value to someone like me with a date car. To everyone else it is just a rebuilt 440. I don't want to get fleeced just because of trying to date code match. If I did decide to proceed, based on the information at hand, what do you think would be a fair offer?

Any idea of an average cost on what it might take to rebuild what I have? I can find part costs like intake, cam, oil pan, etc., but have no idea about the build cost: magnaflux (?), machining, porting, assembly, etc. Again, I have double of the following and can use the best: C440 HP blocks, 915 large chamber heads, forged crankshafts, 67 correct exhaust manifolds, original rockers, (1) electronic distributor. Would $7500 be in the ball park for remaining parts and machining? This would help comparing building fresh vs this date code motor. I am leaning this way as I don't gamble, and always try to spend/invest my money wisely and am thinking building is probably the better choice based on the feed back received.

Also, thank you for all the previous input! And the advise on warranty/guarantee. It is something I will talk to the builder about and consider.
 

HawkRod

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Hawk, that's what I felt. He does have all dated parts, but it really only has value to someone like me with a date car. To everyone else it is just a rebuilt 440. I don't want to get fleeced just because of trying to date code match. If I did decide to proceed, based on the information at hand, what do you think would be a fair offer?

Any idea of an average cost on what it might take to rebuild what I have? I can find part costs like intake, cam, oil pan, etc., but have no idea about the build cost: magnaflux (?), machining, porting, assembly, etc. Again, I have double of the following and can use the best: C440 HP blocks, 915 large chamber heads, forged crankshafts, 67 correct exhaust manifolds, original rockers, (1) electronic distributor. Would $7500 be in the ball park for remaining parts and machining? This would help comparing building fresh vs this date code motor. I am leaning this way as I don't gamble, and always try to spend/invest my money wisely and am thinking building is probably the better choice based on the feed back received.

Also, thank you for all the previous input! And the advise on warranty/guarantee. It is something I will talk to the builder about and consider.
Paul,

If you like, you can read through my engine build where I was learning and did all the machining myself. The engine build part starts here: The first "Hawk-Rod" resurrection, Roadkill style

The reason I am posting that link is there is a lot to consider with rebuilding your engine. If the mains need align boring like mine did, then that is extra cost. Is your deck of your block square? The list goes on.

Overall, I would think that with the parts that you have, I would target roughly $6000 for a good rebuild, of course subject to what issues you may find along the way.

Hawk
 

Paul Boucher

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Thanks! I will most definitely read through this!

Paul,

If you like, you can read through my engine build where I was learning and did all the machining myself. The engine build part starts here: The first "Hawk-Rod" resurrection, Roadkill style

The reason I am posting that link is there is a lot to consider with rebuilding your engine. If the mains need align boring like mine did, then that is extra cost. Is your deck of your block square? The list goes on.

Overall, I would think that with the parts that you have, I would target roughly $6000 for a good rebuild, of course subject to what issues you may find along the way.

Hawk
 

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