Puzzle on tie rod adjustment

[AR67GTX]

Helping a friend trying to get his 69 Hemi Roadrunner up and running and tried to do a backyard front end alignment on it yesterday. He plans on getting a shop alignment but I thought I would get him reasonably close first. With my little camber/caster gage I got the camber set around 1/4 deg negative with rear bushing adjuster moved all the way in to get as much caster as possible and then decided to move on to tracking and toe where I ran into a problem adjusting front tracking.

Problem 1 - I think he misaligned the column shaft when installing the coupler to the gear box. But not knowing that, that's what I started with. I started using a 5 ft straightedge laid against the side wall and gaging how the tire was aligning to the rocker panel to get the wheels pointed straight ahead with gear box centered (only it wasn't). The left side straightened out fine with a few turns of the tie rod sleeve. The right side was toed in pretty good so I started turning the sleeve to shorten the tie rod assembly and move the front of the wheel out. Turned and turned and finally ran out of threads and the tire is still toed in quite a bit.

Problem 2 - Something is apparently wrong so we turned the wheels lock to lock, counted turns of the steering shaft (4-1/2 turns - manual box) and came back to center (2-1/4). Surprise, where he thought the box was centered, it wasn't and the column shaft wasn't indexed correctly to the box. Decided to skip that issue for now and concentrate on finishing the backyard alignment. With slight adjustment the left side straightened back out but the left side is still toed in pretty good (combined about 3/8 to 1/2 inch toe in). And I'm still all out of tie rod adjustment on the right side. So how does that happen? Been a long time since I've had a pitman arm off of my GTX's gear box but I think it has a master spline and will only go on one way. The only other thing I can think of is the right side tie rod sleeve is longer than it should be. Didn't think to tape them but didn't seem to be of different length. Tie rod ends are all new and of same manufacturer. This car is an original Hemi car but he started with basically a rolling bare shell with VIN and has restored and rebuilt the car from there, sourcing parts from everywhere. What else could I be missing?

 

[dadsbee]

Not sure how he can have the column indexed incorrectly. There is a single "key" on both the coupler to box and wheel to column shaft. The only thing he could have wrong is the shaft to coupler is 180 out and would put his wheel upside down at center of box travel.

 

[AR67GTX]

As I remember there was a blind spline on one but no corresponding double spline on the other. I looked at that pretty closely but that's about as far as I got involved with that. He seemed to have it figured out so I went to work on other things. I think he was using a mark on the coupler and a notch on the box with the gear supposedly centered. I worked on the dash side of the firewall helping him install the column so I'm not exactly sure what went wrong on the engine side. I did this years ago on my 67 and didn't have any troubles so I don't know. We can knock the pin out and correct the shaft alignment but that's not going to affect our current issue. At at this point the box is definitely centered - he did it once and I went and did it again with the same results. But the right wheel can't be put straight to the car due to lack of tie rod adjustment. Doesn't make sense.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Just by chance is the steering arm on nut side down?

 

[PurpleBeeper]

Not sure how he can have the column indexed incorrectly. There is a single "key" on both the coupler to box and wheel to column shaft. The only thing he could have wrong is the shaft to coupler is 180 out and would put his wheel upside down at center of box travel.

I'm not much help on the alignment issue, but when I replaced my steering box, it appears that the "double tooth" on the new box was at a different location because my steering wheel is no longer centered...no other changes besides box.

 

[khryslerkid]

I can't help with the steering shaft alignment but the toe in should only be 1/8" at the most.

Measure the distance between the front of the wheels and the measurement between the rear of the wheels. (Center of tire will work.) Rear measurement max 1/8" wider than the front. That should get you some more thread for your adjusters.

This measurement has to be taken with the full weight of the car on the wheels. Hanging suspension will be different. Roll the car back and foward at least once to settle the suspension.

 

[moparnation74]

In regards to the steering shaft.....If the coupler notch, steering wheel keyway and steering box keyway point north and then once installed and the turns don't match than the box is not centered.....easy fix is to take a round file and file out the key on the steering wheel. Then you can manipulate the wheel around once you achieve an initial alignment to get the turns to match......Also is a nice trick to center the steering wheel better.....

Or you go back to square one....remove the coupler from the steering box and center that......

 

[miller]

I would measure both tie rods, to make sure their the same length, first.
Don't remember all the details, but I had some kind of prob on mine, at first. Know it makes a difference, mounting up the tie rods to each end, both ends need to start at the same time. Threads showing the same, on each end? Maybe pull 'em back off, and re-thread?

 

[Wietse]

So you are sure the pitman arm sits in it's correct position?

What is the difference between both sides tie rod thread length?
If the left side is far extended, and the right side is in its shortest position it means you have been compensating for something that is not in center.
The steering wheel and column is the last thing to worry about, you just install it temporary to operate and check.

A very handy way i found to use for the wheel alignment, toe setting, is to attach a wire on the rear leaf spring, pull it horizontally around the rear wheel making sure it is contacting the outer face of the tire in the middle.
Pull this wire beyond the front wheel and secure it on a jack stand or so.
Now check on the rear tire, making sure the wire barely touches the front cheek of the tire.
This pulls a straight line past the front wheel from where you can measure toe setting.
When measuring to the wire from the front cheek of the wheel should show around 1/16" bigger measurement then at the rear cheek.
i found this way of doing on youtube, and was impressed how well it worked.

 

[AR67GTX]

Just by chance is the steering arm on nut side down?

This is possibly worth checking. Couldn't seem to get a good answer as to if the arm was on the rebuilt box when he got it or if he installed it himself. I will check.

Thanks

 

[AR67GTX]

I would measure both tie rods, to make sure their the same length, first.
Don't remember all the details, but I had some kind of prob on mine, at first. Know it makes a difference, mounting up the tie rods to each end, both ends need to start at the same time. Threads showing the same, on each end? Maybe pull 'em back off, and re-thread?

Miller - something else we need to check. I didn't think about measuring their length until I gave up and left. I wonder if a C-body sleeve might be longer and got on it somehow. He's been sourcing used and new parts from all over - and these were used. When I texted them later that we need to measure them, they said their mechanic friend suggested the same thing - could be mismatched.

 

[AR67GTX]

So you are sure the pitman arm sits in it's correct position?
Not completely sure - but I thought they could only install one way (but
I didn't think about upside down.
What is the difference between both sides tie rod thread length?
If you mean the sleeve length - I'm still kicking myself for not measuring before I went home. If you mean the tie rods - I would have to measure the tie rod lengths but they were from a kit so all 4 should be the same length.
If the left side is far extended, and the right side is in its shortest position it means you have been compensating for something that is not in center.
Except that I wouldn't say the left side is far extended (looks within reasonable adjustment) - this is what we have with the gear box setting on dead center as determined by turning lock to lock and then coming back one half of the way. We repeated it twice.
The steering wheel and column is the last thing to worry about, you just install it temporary to operate and check.
That's what we decided too - we can always re-clock the steering shaft/coupler to the gear box later.
A very handy way i found to use for the wheel alignment, toe setting, is to attach a wire on the rear leaf spring, pull it horizontally around the rear wheel making sure it is contacting the outer face of the tire in the middle.
Pull this wire beyond the front wheel and secure it on a jack stand or so.
Now check on the rear tire, making sure the wire barely touches the front cheek of the tire.
This pulls a straight line past the front wheel from where you can measure toe setting.
When measuring to the wire from the front cheek of the wheel should show around 1/16" bigger measurement then at the rear cheek.
i found this way of doing on youtube, and was impressed how well it worked.
I've used this method also except with heavy fishing line instead of wire. I was just trying to get it roughed in by straigtedging back along the rocker panel to where it would track reasonably straight, have reasonable toe in (1/16") and get the steering wheel pretty close to centered. I initially planned to do a fairly accurate alignment on it but when I started on the camber I checked the floor in his shop and it's just too unlevel to do much more than rough it in and let him go ahead and take it to an alignment shop or find someplace level to do it right. I kind of approximated the camber, allowing a bit of windage for the slope of the floor. But I figured out it would be a waster of time to try to dial in the caster - I just roughed in the camber with the rear a-am eccentric turned in all the way to max out the caster. And then I ran into this issue of being unable to get the right wheel pointed straight ahead. Other than a rough check with my toe tram to see roughly how far the right side was out, I never got to where I could use it to set the toe.

Thanks

 

[AR67GTX]

I can't help with the steering shaft alignment but the toe in should only be 1/8" at the most.

Measure the distance between the front of the wheels and the measurement between the rear of the wheels. (Center of tire will work.) Rear measurement max 1/8" wider than the front. That should get you some more thread for your adjusters.

This measurement has to be taken with the full weight of the car on the wheels. Hanging suspension will be different. Roll the car back and foward at least once to settle the suspension.

I have a toe tram gage. Just never got the right side to straighten out enough to use it except to illustrate to the owner how far off we still were. We were doing everything with the car on the suspension (shoulders were sore the next day from laying on the ground and reaching under to turn sleeves and a-arm eccentrics). Had to roll the car often to take stress off of tie rod sleeves so we could turn them.

Thanks

 

[Wietse]

What i mean to say with the tie rod lengths being different is measure between the ball joints (center-to-center)
If the left arm (as per your description) is much longer then the right, you should shorten the left and extend the right one.
But then the wheels will not sit in the straight forward position anymore, which to me sounds like the pitman arm might be installed wrong, not up side down but need to move an x-amount of teeth on the spline.
The way you describe is that you are sure the gearbox is "centered", so leaves the pitman arm to be in the wrong position on the sector shaft.
I was told, that in some cases the sector shaft / pitman arm might not have a "blind spline" like they normally should have.
I know this because i raised this question here as i was not sure how to find the "center" position when i will go ahead and change my (power) steering box and pitman arm.
So when tie rods are about equal length, gearbox is in center position, the sector shaft must be out.
Or as you said, 1 of the tie rod sleeves is longer or shorter then it should be for that car.

 

[AR67GTX]

Talked to his wife a few minutes ago and they measured the tie rod sleeves and they are the same length. But, she said she also thought the tie rod ends were from a suspension kit and she found out they were actually in the parts boxes with the car. Now she is suspecting they are mismatched and of different lengths. They are going to go over and measure all of them tomorrow.

I'm suspicious of the pitman arm also. These blind spline connections are not always what they seem to be. The upper column spline end has an empty (blind) spline position but I spent some time studying the steering wheel hub and I can't find any double spline that would have to center in it. When he had the column out of the car I studied the coupling and it had a blind spline position. But in looking at the gear box input I could not find a double spline that would index with it (not surprising that it is apparently mis-clocked now). So I'm suspicious that it could be missing on the pitman arm too.

 

[dadsbee]

Weird, as I noted above they should all have male and female "key" splines that mate together, leaving the only thing you can put together 180 out is the coupler to steering column shaft. Steering wheel has the male, column shaft the female. Same deal coupling to box and box to arm.

 

[Wietse]

as I noted above they should all have male and female "key" splines that mate together

That's strange then, i did not find this key on my coupler/steering box on the input shaft?
I had this coupler off several times and never seen a blind key on it, also installed back in any position i wanted.
This might me a Ma Mopar "variable" again?

 

[dadsbee]

 

[miller]

Now she is suspecting they are mismatched and of different lengths.

If I remember right, tie rods ends themselves, should all be the same length, for what that's worth.
When the steering wheel is centered, both pitman and idler arms should be aimed pretty much straight forward. That's if the steering link is right.

 

[YY1]

The very first front end I ever did had the same problem.

I was working with another student and they put the end on without screwing it in the same as the one that came off.

We had to remove the ball end and screw it in to match the other side (since we couldn't count the threads/turns any more), then set the steering wheel close, get the threads/turns on the removed end close, reattach the ball end, and take it from there.