R134A issues and alternatives

[451Mopar]

Didn't know they are banning R134a now too.
Just replaced my 21 year old home central A/C heating system a month ago. Old system was the old R22, new system uses the R410a.
I still have about 8 cans of R134a, and 2 cans of R12 in the garage.
Also have a cheap ($500) Amazon refrigerant recovery machine, and a 30lb recovery tank for working on the cars with R134a.

 

[YY1]

I'd read the Enviro safe instructions carefully.

"Compatible" with R134a "systems" and mixing of that product with R134a inside a given system are NOT the same thing

 

[bandit67]

Ok, my memory sometimes is not what it once was, so , this might be off somewhat. The "problem" with the Enviro Temp is the same as 134a, it is a blend. If a system leaks a little, one can add a bit more once and get back to acceptable cooling. BUT, if more slow leaking continues the recommended action is to evacuate the whole system and recharge. I was told this is because the blend of refrigerant , both the drop in and 134a , separate somewhat at idle and the 'lighter' of the blend tends to escape first leading to an embalace of the preferred mixture. I don't know about this Bob, I have NO documentation proving or disproving anything. Supposedly , the blend is to pick up and circulate both the old r 12 oil and the newer PAG type 134 recommended oils. That's about my desired limit of knowledge as the original OP posted, what are the alternatives and is it working for you. This is about my 5th summer using it in my 72 and it is still "cooling" acceptable. JMHO

 

[70bigblockdodge]

If your 134 is not cold your surface areas are too small. Look at any new car the tubes are very small diameter and there are a lot of them. The A/C in my truck will literally make my hands ache from the cold, yes I am old so that does not help.
A straight retrofit on a R12 system will not blow very cold (better than nothing). To do it properly you need to use modern condensers and evaporators. I know this does not help the OP, but blaming a product that you put in the wrong system does not mean it is a bad product, your system is not compatible.
Hope this ban the sale of does not happen in Pa. for a while, sadly I'm sure it is coming. 1234y will be coming up on 10 years old in a few years. Hate to chicken little it, but better stockpile now.
Thank you to OP for early warning

 

[MecGen]

I am slightly confused by your statement about filling an empty system. I think you are saying that if someone was using a refrigerant reclamation device/machine and removed some Enviro-safe that it would then contaminate that machine/device. This is not an issue for me since I do not have such a device.

Its probably not something muscle car hobbyist are worried about but myself, as a licensed tech in a licensed garage, I can tell you guys 100% most shops check for purity before servicing A/C, and on a regular basis, we find contaminated systems from people using these "autoparts blend cans". Cost me 4k to remove 'stop leak' from my machine, since then, we check EVERY car beforehand with a purity tester.

Maybe it doesn't matter for your personal muscle car but I would think twice about putting that stuff in a modern daily driver.

Cheers

 

[GrabberOrange69]

Its probably not something muscle car hobbyist are worried about but myself, as a licensed tech in a licensed garage, I can tell you guys 100% most shops check for purity before servicing A/C, and on a regular basis, we find contaminated systems from people using these "autoparts blend cans". Cost me 4k to remove 'stop leak' from my machine, since then, we check EVERY car beforehand with a purity tester.

Maybe it doesn't matter for your personal muscle car but I would think twice about putting that stuff in a modern daily driver.

Cheers

Thanks for the info.

What do you do with the Freon if is contaminated?

 

[Bob maio]

Didn't know they are banning R134a now too.
Just replaced my 21 year old home central A/C heating system a month ago. Old system was the old R22, new system uses the R410a.
I still have about 8 cans of R134a, and 2 cans of R12 in the garage.
Also have a cheap ($500) Amazon refrigerant recovery machine, and a 30lb recovery tank for working on the cars with R134a.

Just a thought. There is a difference between banning the use of a product and banning the manufacture of the product. I am not sure if your state is banning the use or manufacture, or both. But in my state, which I think is following the federal requirements, you can still use any of the products including R12. Many years ago when they were banning R12, I purchased a 30 pound drum of the stuff. I had to get a special EPA license to do so, but it only took an evening to study and take a test to get it. The rules/regulations as I know them, state that you cannot manufacture R12, but it can be used as long as the supply lasts. I use it in an old corvette just to keep it 100% factory. So far in 40 years I only used 2 pounds of the stuff. My guess is that R134 will follow the same requirements. So in my opinion, you can stock up on all the 134 you can get without breaking the law. And if in Washington, that does not apply, go anywhere in the country to get what you need.

 

[70chall440]

In WA State you cannot purchase R124a (or any of its predecessors), I don't know about the manufacture side of it since I have no intentions of make it. You are correct that I could go to another state and buy some and bring it is although technically that is illegal (although pretty much unenforceable) here as well.

When it comes to AC I don't know what I don't know which is why I come to the forums and use the internet to do research. When I was a kid (talking mid to late 70s) if I bought a car with AC it was the first thing that got ripped out. Today I have come to like AC and pretty much all of my cars now have it except my 73 Cuda and 70 RR. My 70 Challenger RT is a factory AC car which I have plans to put back in (modern system) at some point.

I am quite aways from building my 71 Charger or messing with the AC system for sure, so I will do more research along the way.

 

[Vaughtgr1]

Look I took a refrigeration class as part of my job. I’m not an AC tech by no means but in the class they teach you all the epa stuff and when what changes happened and stuff like that. Almost every time a patent was about to expire meaning other people could start to manufacture the stuff they outlawed that refrigerant. Nothing to do with the environment. That’s what the climate stuff is all about who gets paid and who has stock in what.

 

[RJRENTON]

Look I took a refrigeration class as part of my job. I’m not an AC tech by no means but in the class they teach you all the epa stuff and when what changes happened and stuff like that. Almost every time a patent was about to expire meaning other people could start to manufacture the stuff they outlawed that refrigerant. Nothing to do with the environment. That’s what the climate stuff is all about who gets paid and who has stock in what.

Not necessarily true. The chlorine in the origional Freon 12 (CCl2F2 or dichlorodifluormethane) and the derritives containing Chlorine, break down in the atmosphere, into the components, in this case the chlorine, Cl, attaches to the Ozone in the air (Ozone is O3) to form Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) and Chlorine monoxide. Ozone is reputed to shield the planet from detrimental effects of Ultraviolet radiation from the sun, which everyone knows is a controlled thermonuclear fusion reaction, burning hydrogen gas to form helium, with the resultant difference in atomic weight is pure energy (light and heat). This is the predominate reason for the elimination or reduction of compounding chlorine gas in refrigerants. The manufacturing of chlorine based refrigerants is not entirely profit motivated but Ozone degradation over time.....regardless of one's personal beliefs. (I hold stock in DuPont Corp....origional manufacturer of Freon refrigerants) Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

 

[4406bbl]

Didn't know they are banning R134a now too.
Just replaced my 21 year old home central A/C heating system a month ago. Old system was the old R22, new system uses the R410a.
I still have about 8 cans of R134a, and 2 cans of R12 in the garage.
Also have a cheap ($500) Amazon refrigerant recovery machine, and a 30lb recovery tank for working on the cars with R134a.

And 410a and many other new refrigerants can not be used in new home units, coolers and freezers after Jan 1 2024. 410a was cheap, not anymore. It seems to be a way to force new unit sales and quadruple the freon price.

 

[70chall440]

Its nearly always about the money in one respect or another. I admit that in the past things were banned and changed due to some negative aspect being discovered, however what I have seen in the last 30+ years is things are changed so that a manufacturer can make more money. I worked in the firearms business for about 12 1/2 years and I saw this many times, things were changed because they yielded more revenue, seldom an improvement and frequently the opposite. Likewise I saw policies develop which was not in the consumer's best interest.

 

[4406bbl]

Yes, the original 410a was invented by honeywell/ allied signal, then was called puron by Carrier. It was expensive at first then after 10 year the patents ran out and it went down to 4 bucks a pound. Now they have new stuff and of course I am told Carrier is involved again as we have cheap R32 4-5 bucks a pound and they are trying to get something they developed approved that is way more expensive. R-454b advanced puron. About 20 bucks a pound. Both are mildly flammable, there are other refrigerants also. It just looks like the manufacturers, and epa are in bed together as usual,so write your congressman and senators is about all you can do.

 

[tak419]

What about publishing some operating pressures and discharge temps for the various euphemisms that were stated, such as: "blows cold", "blows ice chips", and similar expletives. I feel sorry for the individuals that use and proclaim the virtues of the PROPANE based refrigerants and their derivatives. These materials are too flammable and dangerous for me and will not consider their use in any of my vehicles. The use of R-1234YF, is already in use by many high end vehicles and successfully. Sure, its INITIALLY expensive, but so are many new products. Has anyone even considered using anhydrous NH3 or CO2? Both refrigerants have a boiling point of approximately -21°F, similar to R12 and R134A. Both refrigerants exhibit excellent specific heat characteristics as well as moderate operating pressures, but will likely require compressors with greater displacement and condensers with greater surface area to operate successfully. Just talking out loud.....
BOB RENTON

You drive a car with a tank of unsealed gasoline under you yet you're worried about a little propane in a cooling system. Have you ever used any penetrating oils or a can of spray paint, most propelled by propane. We drive old fast cars, stop with the safety concerns. And by the way, I know a few guys that run propane in their AC systems and have doing it for years, they haven't blown up yet.

 

[4406bbl]

All of the new freons are mildly flammable, 410-a was but has something added to combat it so they say. I think that is part of the reason it is taking so long for approval. Most new window air units have R-32 in them already and have for several years.

 

[Photon440]

Not necessarily true. The chlorine in the origional Freon 12 (CCl2F2 or dichlorodifluormethane) and the derritives containing Chlorine, break down in the atmosphere, into the components, in this case the chlorine, Cl, attaches to the Ozone in the air (Ozone is O3) to form Chlorine dioxide (ClO2) and Chlorine monoxide. Ozone is reputed to shield the planet from detrimental effects of Ultraviolet radiation from the sun, which everyone knows is a controlled thermonuclear fusion reaction, burning hydrogen gas to form helium, with the resultant difference in atomic weight is pure energy (light and heat). This is the predominate reason for the elimination or reduction of compounding chlorine gas in refrigerants. The manufacturing of chlorine based refrigerants is not entirely profit motivated but Ozone degradation over time.....regardless of one's personal beliefs. (I hold stock in DuPont Corp....origional manufacturer of Freon refrigerants) Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

Whether or not there were harmful effects from R12, Dupont fought tooth and nail against banning chlorofluorocarbons, even taking out newspaper ads declaring that there was no danger. Until the patent ran out. Then they abruptly declared that science showed that chlorofluorocarbons were harmful and they would stop producing them.

 

[72sunroof]

I have only recently discovered that the Gov of this state (Washington) signed into law a bill that bans the sale of R134A (actually happened last year). Like many, I own a lot of AC equipped cars but most notably the 71 Charger I am building will have AC.

I am now pondering how to charge this car and perhaps how to recharge some of the others as it becomes necessary. I see that there are alternatives such as R1234YF which I "believe" is still available here.

Looking for any information or perhaps just a discussion on the subject.

Get your asc 609 license and buy r12 online from eBay. Plenty of it still around. It is only "illegal" to manufacture in the US not illegal to buy and sell with this license. You can also buy 134a. They can't completely ban it since cars need to be serviced. All the alternatives are propane based.

 

[gtx6970]

Is there a general rule as to how much 134a is used in a system on an old car .
manual says 3lbs 6ozs of r12

Ive been told 80% is a good guide which equals to 2.68 lbs

 

[Ranger16]

I think 80% is correct. I'd put in the 2.68 lbs and check the evaporator inlet and outlet pipes. If they are both equally cold, your right about there. If the outlet pipe is warmer than the inlet pipe, add a bit more.