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TF 727 rebuild & Upgrades

Wietse

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Hey guys,

Need some advice from the transmission experts over here!
I had some reads about 727 overhauls and potential upgrades on the forum.
Planning next winter to pull the tranny out and do a full dismantle, inspection and rebuild.
The transmission sits in an "early" '69 Coronet R/T with a 440 HP engine.
The engine has a 4-barrel Holley 770 carb, Eddy Performer RPM intake and Hughes Engines HE3844BL cam with 238/244 @ .050" and .572/.576" lift....no idea about the horse power but i guess it will be in the 425-ish area. ??
Currently installed torque converter has a 3000-3200 flash stall, other then that i have no details of it.
It does seem a little bit of "tight" converter as it does engage quite strong in idle and makes the engine take quite a drop in rpm due to the load.
I am planning a new torque converter anyway with a similar stall but a little more "loose".

Transmission numbers on the pan rail are as follows: 2892093L 2534 9032
which is for the 440 HP and should be build date 5th June 1968
So according my home work i am able to upgrade the valve body with a "part throttle kick down" attachment and has a 24-spline input shaft.

I am not planning to have/use any manual controls, i just want it to run in auto with good shifts and have the part throttle kick down give the option to allow the 3-2 down shift without the need of hammering the pedal on the floor if i need a quick overtake or so.
The car is a streeter/cruiser with the random traffic light fun and will not see any track/strip action.

My ideas are this:

1) Unless i find severe wear or damage i am not planning on replacing anything else than all friction materials and seals.
I don't think i should need to buy more stronger material for high High horsepower applications, suggestions welcome in this.
Planning on using the A&A kit MK22000A, which seems to be the standard kit with red clutches and regular steels.
http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/...s-and-Regular-Steels-(1962-70)__MK22000A.aspx


Forward and Low/Reverse band need to be purchased separate, but there are a few too many choices here to "just take a pick".

I have no idea on what to pick, again i don't know if i should select something for higher hp applications or not?

2) I also want to add the "Part Throttle Kick down" which is a direct bolt-on to the valve body.
A&A sells the upgrade kit for this. Part number: 22740-32SI
http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727-3-2-Kick-Down-Module-(1966-69)__22740-32SI.aspx

3) Install a shift kit for those firmer shifts.
A&A shift kits: AATF-1 Mild Shift improver kit OR AATF-2 Street/Strip OR HD Shift kit.
AATF-1:http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727904-Mild-Shift-improver-Kit__AATF-1.aspx


AATF-2: http://www.aandatrans.com/Products/727904-StreetStrip-Race-or-Heavy-Duty-Shift-Kit__AATF-2.aspx


4) Change out the governor.
My car originally had a 3.23 standard rear axle but now has a 4.10 ratio installed. (it has a LSD but i am not sure original or aftermarket, 489 case)
So because of this IMO the governor pressure is actually not "calibrated" with the road speed as it sees a lot more centrifugal force due to the low gearing.
A&A has several governors to choose from, but i don't know what to select from here to reach the correct setup as i am not sure if the rear gearing change on my car affects the functioning.


So this leaves me a bit in doubt on the overhaul kit friction materials and bands.
What is wise to select for this application, anyone any experience?

Regarding the shift improvement kit i am leaning towards the AATF-2 kit for HD application, the Mild improvement kit sounds a little "mild" lol.

The PTK upgrade is pretty straight forward.
Regarding the governor kit i would say a shift point of 5800 is ok with me, but what does that do to the governor pressure compared to the stock application that is in there now?
Should i select a higher or lower number to compensate or something?

For a new torque converter i was thinking about an A&A 10" Street competition, 3000/3400 stall.
But my most driven speed on long stretches will be 50mph, which puts the engine at 2650rpm with this driveline, so i don't know if it is wise to have the stall speed on the converter quite a bit higher than the cruising speed....guess not.
Does it help to go for a larger or smaller torque converter in diameter and have a lower stall speed? How does that work out?
Because i guess with a too high stall converter it will not only become a fuel hog but also keep the temperatures high on the tranny. (I have already upgraded with an additional oil cooler)

What about the sprag? It might be in good condition, but is it worth replacing with a new one while i am in there?


I am hoping some of you could chime in with some experience on the above details.
A&A website is not giving any details about their parts and kits.
Thx for reading and any info is welcome!
 
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I must tell you that you chose the right company to deal with. I also think you should talk with the owner, Rick Allison at A&A. He's a very personable and intelligent person. I have personal experience wworking with him on a race trans for my max wedge 500 inch eengine, and couldn't be happier! Give him a call. I'm sure he will be more than happy to help you. Good Luck with your project!
 
I heard more good stuff about A&A, sending them an email with so many questions is a bit confusing i think so i will have to communicate with them piece by piece.
I am from the other side of the pond, so a technical conversation on the phone is going to be a struggle for me. I know my English, but that is pushing it. :D

It's too bad their website does barely give any details about all stuff they are selling.
 
Ricks stuff is good. Use the TF2 shift kit. 99% that you won't need a new rear band. The solid red front bands are the best. I would leave the low roller (sprag) alone. 3.8 lever is fine. If you don't have 3.8 then you can purchase a 4.2. Governors are listed by shift speed at WOT. Call A&A, they will walk you through it.
Doug
 
Thx for the good info guys.
Yeah A&A seems good stuff, a lot of good comments over the web.
The TF2 kit is the one from Transgo right?
So the sprag is likely ok, but should i not dismantle it at all or just remove for cleaning and inspection and install back?
So how does a solid band act different than a flex band?
Going solid means you must have a 3.8 ratio rod at mimimum? What is the original one then?
Does the rear band not see much wear then? I don't know if this transmission ever was rebuild, i do have a suspicion that the car has been used for strip racing so i might find wear and tear.

For the governor i will ask together with the torque converter for some advice.

And another thing, i read that it is wise to prior to dismantling to check the axial clearance on the input shaft and record the clearance.
If this seems off, i will require shimming to get the clearance in specs, correct?
 
You check end play before disassembly. The key is to check it on assembly. As long as a flex band doesn't break they're fine. I've never broke one but I've a;ways been a fan of the solid. The 3.8/4.2 lever is recommended for performance applications. They come in 2.8,3.2,3.8,4.2,5.0. The higher the ratio, the more clamp load on the band. Also the greater the servo travel distance. You more than likely already have a 3.2 or 3.8. The rear band is used in 1st gear braking and reverse only. They are very seldom worn. Disassemble and clean everything.
Doug
 
Understood. I read about the axial clearance that when you measure prior disassembly you can get a reasonable idea if there is any severe wear damage on main components, not on the "wear" parts though.
Anyway when you go to the extend of opening it up that doesn't matter.
But indeed when rebuilding the clearance need to be checked.

So for this application with this engine i would be better off with solid band and a 3.8/4.2 lever instead of an OEM style band.

The rear band is used in 1st gear braking and reverse only.
Yeah, then the chances on excessive wear is quite small.
I was already wondering why the bands are not included in the overhaul kits, but it makes sense to allow rebuilders to choose the individual band themselves.
Specially with all the many forward types friction materials, flex/solid band options.

A&A sells the kit for my year with red frictions and kolene steels, but also has a kit with same frictions and steels but comes with 5ea thin frictions for high gear drum that fits the stock drum.
Would that be worth it? It's only $10 difference but if i don't need it, i don't need it.
Or even regular steels.
Reading up on Kolene steel at Raybestos it seems the Kolene steels are a good improvement over stock.
 
The factory band is a solid band. No need for Kolenes or 5 frictions in your application. Ran Raybestos frictions in my old Dodge. 700 passes you could still read Raybestos on the frictions. 10.30's@3450lbs.

Edit; Factory went to flex band around 1973.
Doug
 
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The factory band is a solid band.

Lol, i was under the impression the factory band was a flex style.
A&A calls this the 2nd gear band right? Other say Forward band.
So a rebuild kit with red frictions and normal steels will do the job.

700 passes you could still read Raybestos on the frictions.
Guess that's quality!! :D

Whats your thoughts on the part throttle kick down for a streeter?
You ever modified a transmission and added this?
I mean, IMO it just adds that ease of a fast step up without the need to ram to WOT to get it.
From what i read is that it still requires 3/4 throttle so it's not that it will act very often or unexpected during normal driving.
 
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Part throttle would be nice.

Yes, i think it will be a nice add on to the tranny function.
But as not everyone is positive about it i wonder why not, is it because they don't need/want it or is there another reason for it?
Break down or malfunction or so?
 
I wondered about the converter stall i should be looking at, now just comparing camshafts with similar duration as my camshaft (HE3844BL) i see many of them have an effective rpm range starting at 2300-2400rpm.
Now why would i go for a 3000 stall converter and have such a big gap between when the cam kicks in and the converter stall?
Would you really need such a big gap?
What if i install a 2600-2800 rpm stall converter, would that be too close and give problems?
I know i need to ask A&A about this but just a thought from myself..

How does an advertised stall reflect against its flash stall, is that near enough same?
I know the same stall converter reacts different between a SB and BB, but there is no rule of thumb to determine a range?
 
For the governor i will ask together with the torque converter for some advice.

Do you have a tachometer in the car? Where does it stop pulling at high rpm if you manually select the gears? The governor spec shouldn't be much over max HP. If you dyno'ed your engine, and the HP peak was 5500 rpm, for example; you'd want a governor weight not much over 5700-5800 rpm.
 
I never tested that, and i did not dyno the engine.
Going by cam specs i would say this cams rpm range should see a peak at 5800-6000 rpm.
But from my point of view i don't need any more rpm than that, i actually want to set my rev limiter in that area on the distributor.
But does a governor advertised as say 5800, make the transmissions shift at/near that rpm?
Is that a fixed reading, and does the difference in advertised rpm make any differences at lower rpms?
 
But does a governor advertised as say 5800, make the transmissions shift at/near that rpm?

More or less. Line pressure, shift kits will affect that. But in Drive, that's about where it will be.
 
Weitse
Drive what you have
do a stall test
no rush to change converters till you know what you need
u do not need 5 plates or thin steels
NO REASON not to do PTLD
 
I had send an email to A&A with all numbers an specs required to determine the right converter for it.
Will let you know once i hear something from them.

Does anyone know if the AATF-2 shift improver kit that A&A offers on their website is their own product or is that the Transgo kit?
 
The higher the ratio, the more clamp load on the band. Also the greater the servo travel distance.

Not necessarily, that's what the threaded adjuster is for, to keep the servo travel the same with different levers.
 
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