The Great “Matching Numbers” debate So what say you?

chtampa

FBBO Gold Member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
11:46 AM
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
3,593
Reaction score
4,405
Location
Tampa, FL
If you have to true the block surface of a 383, the numbers get cut away on the right side.
 

Thunderlugs

FBBO Gold Member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Sep 21, 2016
Messages
767
Reaction score
1,118
Location
Burlington, WI
Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

20190629_185237.jpg 20190610_142401.jpg 20190610_142422.jpg
 

Nevada dan

Well-Known Member
Local time
8:46 AM
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Messages
503
Reaction score
757
Location
Nevada
DEE8D624-8FED-43A7-915F-3203527B4A06.jpeg
97ACFA19-E50F-476B-93E5-788E0670683F.jpeg
The coronet was a 318 much better improvement IMO , the roadrunner is numbers matching but that’s not stopping me from making it the way I like, as for the purists they’re getting smaller as they are dying off , nothing against them I’m just glad to have what I got
 

AR67GTX

FBBO Gold Member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
3,355
Reaction score
2,449
Location
Arkansas
In the crazy Corvette world (I’m sorry to talk about them on a Mopar forum but no one goes more crazy over this stuff than they do), the term “matching numbers” has become red flag because so many of them advertised this way are really correct date code range blocks, but re-stamped, non-original motors that are passed off as the real born-with motors. So the experienced guys scoff at the term “matching numbers” as something to instantly beware of. The smart ones want to see actual providence such as full owner history and testimony on the engines originality and an NCRS-expienced expert stamp pad verification that the engine is the actual “born with”, stamped by GM motor before laying down big bucks. But even NCRS will not judge or declare a cars motor as original.
 

440 PHIXX

The Island of Misfit Mopars
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
3,616
Location
Phillytown
In the crazy Corvette world (I’m sorry to talk about them on a Mopar forum but no one goes more crazy over this stuff than they do), the term “matching numbers” has become red flag because so many of them advertised this way are really correct date code range blocks, but re-stamped, non-original motors that are passed off as the real born-with motors. So the experienced guys scoff at the term “matching numbers” as something to instantly beware of. The smart ones want to see actual providence such as full owner history and testimony on the engines originality and an NCRS-expienced expert stamp pad verification that the engine is the actual “born with”, stamped by GM motor before laying down big bucks. But even NCRS will not judge or declare a cars motor as original.

I agree with the Corvette analogy. That’s where it all started back in the late 70’s. But original owner can’t even verify the block. Anyone can stamp a date coded block.

You did state that in your last sentence.:D
 

glenns hc

Active Member
Local time
11:46 AM
Joined
Dec 24, 2021
Messages
39
Reaction score
24
Location
Queens NY
Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

View attachment 1219366 View attachment 1219372 View attachment 1219382
That’s mint!!!!!
 

64BEL

FBBO Gold Member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
Messages
4,838
Reaction score
6,559
Location
Wisconsin
Have mine 46 years. Was a roller, original motor and trans long gone,but the shrapnel holes remained from exploded flywheel, (badge of honor) A Real Hemi equipped car with a 4 speed, sold new Mr Norms, correct numbers, fender tag , bla bla bla. I have never passed it off as a matching numbers car, just as a real Hemi. The value is, what it is , with the modifications I selected,cam, headers, compression,carburation. It's a pleasure to drive, but also a challenge to drive. If I had it to do over, I would build a pure stock version, if for any reason, easier driveability. On second thought..... Nah, F...k it! I wouldn't change a thing!!

View attachment 1219366 View attachment 1219372 View attachment 1219382
A blast to ride in and it sounds awesome! :thumbsup: Makes me want to straight pipe mine, but I've resisted that urge so far. :moparsmiley:
 

1STMP

Well-Known Member
Local time
9:46 AM
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
1,339
Reaction score
2,330
Location
Roswell, New Mexico
As one who's first Mopar is a hodge podge
pile of parts, numbers matching has no
meaning or ultimate goal. I understand the
concept full well, and those cars, on an
average are worth more money.
What I've got, is my vision as to how the
build comes together. Like it or not, it's
mine. You're going to frown on on some
things, and be awed by others. But whatever
I do, it becomes unique, and it's worth
whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
So it becomes numbers matching for me
as I've incorporated changes (given current
technologies) that makes it better than
what the factory, at the time,, produced..
4 wheel disc brakes, fuel injection, better
electronics.. It becomes a 1 of 1. From
what I've built, I take more pride.
And I won't be afraid to drive it.
The lucky few that have a numbers matching
car that is 50+ years old should do everything
in their power to keep them that way.
Case in point.....
image005-1.jpg
 
Last edited:

MoparGuy68

Well-Known Member
Local time
8:46 AM
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
776
Reaction score
543
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I have a numbers matching engine/trans Super Bee. It was that, along with being an original N96 and GY3 car that motivated me to buy it. I wanted a real factory built vintage Mopar big block muscle car.

Two years later, I decided I wanted a Mopar muscle car that I could drive daily (practically & reliably), that has comfortable seats, A/C and I don’t have to constantly work on it. So I bought a modern V8 equipped Challenger.
 

451Mopar

Well-Known Member
Local time
9:46 AM
Joined
Oct 25, 2011
Messages
3,213
Reaction score
2,527
Location
Aurora, CO
What are the current collector car pronouns now?
Seems "Numbers Matching" expectations have changed over time.

I seem to recall when it was "Original Numbers Matching" for more of a survivor type car with original sheet metal, suspension, rims, glass?
Now it seems there are "Numbers Matching" cars built from a drive train and vin tag, and almost no original sheet metal or other parts.
Then there is "Restored to Original numbers matching", "Over Restored numbers matching", "Day 2 numbers matching", "Tribute numbers matching?", and so on...
 

barbee6043

Well-Known Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
2,398
Reaction score
2,251
Location
S E Texas. Shepherd, texas
I admit I did not read the pages here. My take is few of these old "muscle" cars retained their oem drivetrain that long. Over the decades I have owned many many dozen and few had their original eng or trans.
I love survivors but even fewer of those exist in HP forms.
Some cars are worth too many $$$$ now day for me to own, drive and enjoy them, so I just build what I want from just an old Mopar!
 

AR67GTX

FBBO Gold Member
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
3,355
Reaction score
2,449
Location
Arkansas
I agree with the Corvette analogy. That’s where it all started back in the late 70’s. But original owner can’t even verify the block. Anyone can stamp a date coded block.

You did state that in your last sentence.:D

Actually date codes in Chevy blocks are cast into engine blocks. But there have been several instances uncovered where the cast in date code and even the block ID numbers were carefully ground off and equally carefully replaced with new codes in JB Weld. One guy thought he had an original or at least correct 427 in his car only to discover it was a 396 low-hp engine block.
 

440 PHIXX

The Island of Misfit Mopars
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
3,616
Location
Phillytown
Actually date codes in Chevy blocks are cast into engine blocks. But there have been several instances uncovered where the cast in date code and even the block ID numbers were carefully ground off and equally carefully replaced with new codes in JB Weld. One guy thought he had an original or at least correct 427 in his car only to discover it was a 396 low-hp engine block.

Yeah. I understand. I was talking about stamping a block with a date code in the right vicinity. And yes, many blocks have had the cast in date code altered to match.
 

HALIFAXHOPS

MSGT(ret) and MOPAR only distributor rebuilder!
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
11:46 AM
Joined
May 5, 2016
Messages
4,558
Reaction score
2,280
Location
Halifax, PA USA
I get the matching numbers. I deal with members that do it all the time everything in a distributor has to be 100% correct. Nice to have the cars around for reference personally. There are a few "real survivors" around here I look at on ocassion for reference. Me personally I can never afford one.
 

440 PHIXX

The Island of Misfit Mopars
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
2,227
Reaction score
3,616
Location
Phillytown
To me a “survivor” is a car in it’s 3rd, maybe 4th engine block. Had 6 or more previous owners. And is still here today after all of it’s use and abuse. These are the cars that all the folklore is about. Not some garage kept 1 or two owner, original paint car with an engine that has never been rebuilt and a date coded windshield washer pump. I mean... who wants a 50 yo virgin?:)
 

joemish

Well-Known Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
May 29, 2014
Messages
203
Reaction score
92
Location
murfreesboro,Tn.
Then there are some outliers like me maybe, who just want to own some of these cars for a few years and then resell to get something different. My motivation isn't for profit. It's to drive/own several of these cars. If I could afford it, I would have kept everyone that I've owned in the past 10 plus years. But I get a kick out of having something different. Part of that is because I'm not emotionally attached to a car that I've had for decades. Although I do have a GN that I bought in the early 90's still. But that's because the kids don't want me to let it go. In the past 10 years I've had a 70 RT with 23K (even met original owner), 71 Shaker Chall RT that I've owned twice!, 2 Magnum SRT8's which are a lot of fun, etc. Even bought my SRT4 I bought new from my son, so we're keeping it in the family. During this time, had a couple of newer 5.0's and a mazdaspeed3. After typing this I feel kind of dumb for going through so many cars. But point is, really just want to drive different cars. Even with the numbers cars, I drove them to every car show around, couldn't care less about mileage. Current 71 440-6 GTX will get driven everywhere, but I'll probably only keep it for 2-3 years. I do avoid driving in crap weather because I hate getting back under the hood to clean up!
look me up when you are gonna dump the '71
 

Mr. Mike

Well-Known Member
Local time
11:46 AM
Joined
Dec 10, 2021
Messages
159
Reaction score
93
Location
Mount Joy PA
Used to run with a guy here in PA some might recognize as never going to a meet in a Mopar. We visited the owner of an all original 71 Hemi 'Cuda doing an engine out paint resto.
What put me off numbers matching cars was the eyebolts embedded in the floor to slow theives.
I know a lot of guys sold their rides when they couldn't afford replacement insurance premiums.
 
Last edited:

RemCharger

Well-Known Member
Local time
10:46 AM
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
3,052
Reaction score
2,665
Location
Sask
Used to run with a guy here in PA some might recognize as never going to a meet in a Mopar. We visited the owner of an all original 71 Hemi 'Cuda doing an engine out paint resto.
What put me off numbers matching cars was the eyebolts embedded in the floor to slow theives.
I know a lot of guys sold their rides when they couldn't afford replacement insurance premiums.
*picks up phone*
"Hey its Ted. Please replace my original survivor 71 Hemi Cuda, someone stole.."
*click*
 

Slant 6 Music

Well-Known Member
Local time
8:46 AM
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
156
Reaction score
82
Location
Washington
look me up when you are gonna dump the '71
Funny you use that term! :) I don't have the money or facilities to have several cars at once. On newer cars, I viewed them as a rental. On the vintage Mopars, I just want to own different models. If I could afford to keep them all, I would have for sure. My goal is to hopefully not lose money, because I always end up fixing stuff that I didn't anticipate when I bought it and I'm picky. But sure, if or when I dump it, I'll keep you in mind.
 

Slant 6 Music

Well-Known Member
Local time
8:46 AM
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
156
Reaction score
82
Location
Washington
To me a “survivor” is a car in it’s 3rd, maybe 4th engine block. Had 6 or more previous owners. And is still here today after all of it’s use and abuse. These are the cars that all the folklore is about. Not some garage kept 1 or two owner, original paint car with an engine that has never been rebuilt and a date coded windshield washer pump. I mean... who wants a 50 yo virgin?:)
True dat!
 

Top