The old 50-Fastest List - was #18-#22 really a 426/365 or a MaxWedge?

[Budnicks]

Here's a newer Street Muscle Mag art.
MusclecarClub.com's with that list, from back in the day

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/musclecarclub-coms-list-of-the-50-fastest-muscle-cars/

IIRC many of the cars tested weren't showroom stock
most were all track tuned, IIRC some even had headers added too

the 1st of them type lists "I org. saw" it was the & I'm "sorry to say"
70 GS Buick stage 1 455 auto 3.64:1 gears was the
IIRC allegedly went best of 13.15 et. @ 106 mph or something like that
it was the fastest true "off the showroom floor, all org. stock street/muscle car"...
the Corvette & Cobra's weren't included they were considered sports cars,
so was the Camaro & Mustangs, the AMX too were considered Pony cars,
not true formula for a "muscle cars", mid size big block HT or sedan...
I couldn't find the article, I was thinking of
BUT;
IIRC it was in Hot Rod or maybe CarCraft {?} Mag too...
I may try to find it, it had real world stats, not the fabricated ones...

if you need calculators try or want to try what if #'s
here's some great calculators, pretty damn accurate
corrected based on sea level altitudes & track performance
with assumed good traction prep & conditions etc.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

 

[Geri]

Hi there, I am revisiting the old 50-Fastest list, trying to sort things out apples to apples. A few of those old road tests seem a little too good to be true.

One of them is the #18 or #22, depending on your version of the list.
Allegedly bone stock 1964 Polara 426/365hp 4spd-3.23, ran
13.70 at 107

https://myclassicgarage.com/social/posts/80592-22-the-list-1964-dodge-polara-426-wedge

I have a pretty good computer program (the Gonkulator) written over the last 40 years, and no way short of a hurricane tailwind I can match that 107mph. I know that seems slow for today, but back then, the fastest HEMI road tests I have for stockers was 105-107mph, with a prototype aero Charger-500 at 109mph.

The idea of a brick-like Polara with that grocery getter 426/365 turning 107mph seems doubtful. I have tons of old magazine road tests but not that one (Hot Cars, Feb 1964) so I don't know the details.

Motor Trend August 1962 tested a 413/410 Dart automatic to 14.40 at 101mph showroom stock, or 13.44 at 109.8mph with open pipes and driver only. Ok no surprise there, but since the muffled 413/410 only turned 101mph in that little Dart, I'd expect the grocery-store 426/365 to be a lot slower than even 101mph, and certainly not 107mph.

Does anybody recall this old road test or can you shed any light on it?

I think the speed associated with that 365/426 street wedge is wishful thinking it was not the SS engine -I road tested one for a local Plymouth dealer in 64 (4 speed) and found it to be quite unimpressive, I'd think that package would turn a high 90 but not 105/107, the automatic version may have been better. I bought a new 1969 440 cuda plymouth -factory advertised 14.05 at 105 with the single 4 bbs and auto- that is exactly what mine turned , with a tunnel ram,mopar purple .505 cam. fender well headers (yes i destroyed a really rare cuda)and 4.30 gears itturnd 1190's at 119, heck of a car- so I blew up the 440.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Hey DeuceCoupe, could you please run some numbers on this "stock" '72 Satellite Sebring Plus that does 13 second quarter mile times? If it wera a Hemi, I could believe it, but a 400?

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/m...-Plymouth-Satellite-Sebring-Plus/3728861.html

From the article:
No radical weight-saving measures have taken place--Randy's Satellite is factory weight minus only the spare tire and jack. Thus far, the 3,761-pound Satellite and its pilot have dipped into the 13s together: His best run, on repro bias-ply rubber, is a 13.89 at 98.5 MPH, with a 1.94 60-foot. "I believe that to be an excellent time for a low-compression engine in a fairly heavy car," Randy tells us. We tend to agree. Over time, Randy has clearly perfected his prep and launch techniques--one doesn't get a 13-second run out of a two-ton Mopar and 255 horses without some know-how. "I typically like to do a dry burnout since treaded tires tend to hold water and can make for some slippery launches," he says. "I like to power-brake it against the converter, which is about 1,400-1,500 RPM and then mash the throttle as long as the track can hold it. I like to shift myself at 5,200-5,300 RPM--that's about max for the 400. It will cross the finish line at 4,600-4,700 RPM." All of this was accomplished with the factory-assembled powertrain.

Car sounds like a ringer.

 

[383man]

Here's a newer Street Muscle Mag art.
MusclecarClub.com's with that list, from back in the day

http://www.streetmusclemag.com/news/musclecarclub-coms-list-of-the-50-fastest-muscle-cars/

IIRC many of the cars tested weren't showroom stock
most were all track tuned, IIRC some even had headers added too

the 1st of them type lists "I org. saw" it was the & I'm "sorry to say"
70 GS Buick stage 1 455 auto 3.64:1 gears was the
IIRC allegedly went best of 13.15 et. @ 106 mph or something like that
it was the fastest true "off the showroom floor, all org. stock street/muscle car"...
the Corvette & Cobra's weren't included they were considered sports cars,
so was the Camaro & Mustangs, the AMX too were considered Pony cars,
not true formula for a "muscle cars", mid size big block HT or sedan...
I couldn't find the article, I was thinking of
BUT;
IIRC it was in Hot Rod or maybe CarCraft {?} Mag too...
I may try to find it, it had real world stats, not the fabricated ones...

if you need calculators try or want to try what if #'s
here's some great calculators, pretty damn accurate
corrected based on sea level altitudes & track performance
with assumed good traction prep & conditions etc.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

No way do I believe the Buick GSX went 13.15 @ 106 stock off the showroom floor. The fastest I ever saw tested back in the day was a 13.38 by MT but all other mags reported low 14's to high 13's as about 13.80 was the best I saw other then the MT road test. That's like the 69-1/2 six pack Roadrunner running 12.90's when most of the A12 cars ran mid to high 13's all stock. One mag did run 13.18 with an A12 Runner but they had bolted slicks on as it ran about 13.50's on the street tires. Honestly many road test back in the day were over a second apart on the same type car. Course with carbs and points the tune was much more important back then to run a good number then today when electronics control everything. Heck just slightly worn points back then could retard the timing 5 to 10 degrees and hurt the performance a good bit on the old muscle cars. And many were ringers also. But it was a great time to live ! Ron

 

[383man]

A few years back Muscle Car Review mag posted the 10 fastest cars Hot Rod had tested in the muscle car era. But most had small mods don't to them. The fastest was a 63 Belvedere 426 Max Wedge with the lower comp 415 hp eng that ran 12.69 @ 111.95. But it had the exh cutouts open and cheater slicks which you can tell by the MPH did not work to good back then as if you go 111 to 112 mph on todays stickies you should run high 11's or low 12's. Number two was actually a 68 or 69 Buick GS 400 I believe but it was modded a good bit even in the eng as it ran 12.80's I believe. The L-88 Vette ran 13.56 at about 111 as they wanted 4.10 or better gears but it had 3.36 gears. You can tell by its mph it was a mid 12 car with gear and good tires. The 69 -1/2 six pack Super Bee ran 13.56 all stock and 13.36 on slicks. The 68 Hemi Charger ran 13.48 and the 70 LS6 Chevelle ran 13.44. I wish they had tested them all stock. Heck a 69 Cuda 340 with headers and an aluminum intake and Holley carb ran around 13.30's with Ronnie Sox driving. I gotta dig up the issue to get all the facts. Ron

 

[Frustration]

If I remember correctly, and I rarely do...that article pulled road tests from the major magazines of the day. The times reported certainly included some "ringers". There were ringer cars, and ringer drivers as well. It mentioned that since the "ringers" actually ran the road tests that were reported, the times would be reported exactly as they appeared in the mags back in the day. Remember, when the auto makers released a new model to the press, they did so in hopes of a good review, followed by good sales of the model. They did not do it in order to provide a "real world" comparison of all super cars of the day. I'm 49 years old, so I wasn't at the age to know what was going on back then, but I've followed the muscle car hobby my entire life. Being a Mopar fan, I admit that Chrysler did what they needed to do to compete with the Ford and Chevy models at the track and the showroom.

Today the term "day two" is thrown around to describe how these stock cars were modified as soon as they returned home to their original owners. My Road Runner received a Sun Tach (still in the car), Cragar Wheels, and an Accel ignition (dual point) as soon as it came home. For some reason my uncle, who took care of Pop's car mechanically, never put headers nor an aluminum intake on the car when new. In that set-up, with 3.91 gears an automatic, and street tires, the fastest our 383 car ran was a 14.57 @ 92 MPH. Cars that are not on the list would have beaten stock cars at the top of the list with some of the more savvy "day two" mods.

I won a lot of street races against other stock muscle cars in the late 80's with the "Chicken". Most of the reason for my wins were the steep gears with short tires and the "B-body hook" associated with leaving the line. Other, faster cars would blow by me just past the finish line, but the start was where the "Chicken" took them down.

My uncle Jerry, who was Pop's mechanic, has lots of stories about beating 396 Chevelles (325 and 350HP models, but not 375 HP cars). My favorite is of him beating a kid in a 428 Mustang. The course was shorter than 1/4 mile, and the "Chicken" got the jump off the line. At the finish line, Jerry said the kid had to be running 20 MPH faster. A win is a win, and he wouldn't race the stang again.

 

[Mike Gaines]

Hey guys...so much for old road test articles.
I bought my BRAND NEW 426 Max Wedge Aluminum Front End 1963 Plymouth when I was 21 years old.
I raced NHRA AFX class in 1963, Super Stock A Automatic in late 1963 and 1964. Went into AA Stock Automatic in 1965.
My first outings in 1963 ( with 7" Goodyear Blue Streak Slicks and open headers, of course ) netted me pretty regular ET's of 12.30 to 12.35 at around 115mph. Got the ET's down to high 12.20's in 1965 when the NHRA National Record was in the range of 12.12 to 12.15. The record was held most of the season by Mike Schmidt of Desert Motors in Ridgecrest, CA. His car was, would you believe, was a 1964 Ford Galaxie Factory Lightweight Car with the 427"/425HP motor and a FORD-O-MATIC automatic trans. Us Mopar guys were livid that a darn Ford held the record against out almighty Mopars. (LOL) but it is true.
But...you have to realize that we did NOT have the track prep that there is today. My 63 Max Wedge converter had a flash of around 1800rpm, the motor technology, the ignition technology, etc, etc, tire stickiness, and traction systems (like Cal Tracs DID NOT EXIST)....and low 12 ET's were darn FAST FOR THE TIME.

 

[dvw]

I had a dead stock 383 Dart GTS convertible in1974 It had a 4 speed, 3.23, F70x14 Goodyears. At milan it ran 14.50"s@95mph. I never tried tuning, timing , plugs. Before that I had a beater 68 Road Runner, 440, cast iron 6pak, headers, 3.23. 14.50's as well.
Doug

 

[mopar blood]

I had a dead stock 383 Dart GTS convertible in1974 It had a 4 speed, 3.23, F70x14 Goodyears. At milan it ran 14.50"s@95mph. I never tried tuning, timing , plugs. Before that I had a beater 68 Road Runner, 440, cast iron 6pak, headers, 3.23. 14.50's as well.
Doug

here's a promo ad from dodge

 

[JACK FOSHEE]

that 426 wedge was most likely the 385 hp nascar 4 bll motor

 

[DeuceCoupe]

Hey guys...so much for old road test articles.
I bought my BRAND NEW 426 Max Wedge Aluminum Front End 1963 Plymouth when I was 21 years old.
I raced NHRA AFX class in 1963, Super Stock A Automatic in late 1963 and 1964. Went into AA Stock Automatic in 1965.
My first outings in 1963 ( with 7" Goodyear Blue Streak Slicks and open headers, of course ) netted me pretty regular ET's of 12.30 to 12.35 at around 115mph. Got the ET's down to high 12.20's in 1965 when the NHRA National Record was in the range of 12.12 to 12.15. The record was held most of the season by Mike Schmidt of Desert Motors in Ridgecrest, CA. His car was, would you believe, was a 1964 Ford Galaxie Factory Lightweight Car with the 427"/425HP motor and a FORD-O-MATIC automatic trans. Us Mopar guys were livid that a darn Ford held the record against out almighty Mopars. (LOL) but it is true.
But...you have to realize that we did NOT have the track prep that there is today. My 63 Max Wedge converter had a flash of around 1800rpm, the motor technology, the ignition technology, etc, etc, tire stickiness, and traction systems (like Cal Tracs DID NOT EXIST)....and low 12 ET's were darn FAST FOR THE TIME.

Thanks Mike (and all).
No apologies needed for having that 64 Ford Lightweight Galaxie (LWG) hold so many records in the MaxWedge class. That car had a 427/"425"hp alright - and Ford's intent was to have the car run in A/S=8.70 Wt/HP. Ford set the car weight at 3750, so 3750/425=8.82 which put the car right at the top of A/S=8.70 class in NHRA. I suppose NHRA took one look under the hood and just laughed. That 427 was Ford's version of the "max wedge and almost a Hemi". It was the same HiRiser engine as the Thunderbolts got, just in a 400-lb heavier car. Two sewer-pipe size tubes ran cold air from the grille to the carbs, which is why they had a bubble hood. (The engine/carbs/aircleaner cleared, so they ran a flat hood in NASCAR, but the sewer-pipe ram air system did not). NHRA factored it to more like 460-500hp, which was still way less than it made, and that put the car in S/S class with the Thunderbolts and Hemis. Ford said that's not fair, so NHRA created the AA/S=7.00-8.69 class which is then where the Ford LWG, MaxWedge, and Z-11 Chevy (if they had qualified) would run each other. It was a pretty even class over the years, with the Ford LWG and Mopar MaxWedge trading records and wins. So if you see a 64 Galaxie at the strip, and it looks like the front grille is busted up, it may just be a LWG with a HiRiser and ram air!

I'm compiling as much NHRA history as I can from 1960-1971, and the MaxWedge has more wins/records than any other big block, period. Sadly, only a few hundred cars were built. But only 50 Ford LWG were built, 25 auto and 25 stick cars.

Road Tests:
I am also of the mind to omit 2-seaters from those old road tests. Why not count 2-seat motorcycles then? Even the Model A coupe of 1928 had a rumble seat option which made it a 4-seater. (those are FUN!) I also sometimes omit any combos where there were less than 1000 produced from the factory, which then omits the MaxWedge, Pontiac SuperDuty, Chevy Z11, Ford Thunderbolt, LWG, and 427 Fairlane, Camaro ZL1, etc. How many people (other than racers) could actually buy or even order those cars new and get one?

After almost 2 years of this thread:
On that Feb 64 Hot Cars (anybody find that article?) test of the 107mph 426/365 Street Wedge, I still cant find the article but this thread confirms my decision to either bin that car as a MaxWedge car or some other mystery car.

Thanks for all the input - that era will never be repeated!

 

[Mike Gaines]

Thanks Mike (and all).
No apologies needed for having that 64 Ford Lightweight Galaxie (LWG) hold so many records in the MaxWedge class. That car had a 427/"425"hp alright - and Ford's intent was to have the car run in A/S=8.70 Wt/HP. Ford set the car weight at 3750, so 3750/425=8.82 which put the car right at the top of A/S=8.70 class in NHRA. I suppose NHRA took one look under the hood and just laughed. That 427 was Ford's version of the "max wedge and almost a Hemi". It was the same HiRiser engine as the Thunderbolts got, just in a 400-lb heavier car. Two sewer-pipe size tubes ran cold air from the grille to the carbs, which is why they had a bubble hood. (The engine/carbs/aircleaner cleared, so they ran a flat hood in NASCAR, but the sewer-pipe ram air system did not). NHRA factored it to more like 460-500hp, which was still way less than it made, and that put the car in S/S class with the Thunderbolts and Hemis. Ford said that's not fair, so NHRA created the AA/S=7.00-8.69 class which is then where the Ford LWG, MaxWedge, and Z-11 Chevy (if they had qualified) would run each other. It was a pretty even class over the years, with the Ford LWG and Mopar MaxWedge trading records and wins. So if you see a 64 Galaxie at the strip, and it looks like the front grille is busted up, it may just be a LWG with a HiRiser and ram air!

I'm compiling as much NHRA history as I can from 1960-1971, and the MaxWedge has more wins/records than any other big block, period. Sadly, only a few hundred cars were built. But only 50 Ford LWG were built, 25 auto and 25 stick cars.

Road Tests:
I am also of the mind to omit 2-seaters from those old road tests. Why not count 2-seat motorcycles then? Even the Model A coupe of 1928 had a rumble seat option which made it a 4-seater. (those are FUN!) I also sometimes omit any combos where there were less than 1000 produced from the factory, which then omits the MaxWedge, Pontiac SuperDuty, Chevy Z11, Ford Thunderbolt, LWG, and 427 Fairlane, Camaro ZL1, etc. How many people (other than racers) could actually buy or even order those cars new and get one?

After almost 2 years of this thread:
On that Feb 64 Hot Cars (anybody find that article?) test of the 107mph 426/365 Street Wedge, I still cant find the article but this thread confirms my decision to either bin that car as a MaxWedge car or some other mystery car.

Thanks for all the input - that era will never be repeated!

 

[Mike Gaines]

Here is pix of my max wedge in 1963

 

[biomedtechguy]

That's so cool Mike Gaines!
Having bought that Max Wedge lightweight and go rip up the track...

 

[biomedtechguy]

Here is pix of my max wedge in 1963

View attachment 880657 View attachment 880658

 

[gooser]

I have a road test of a 64 plymouty sport fury 426 365 4sp 2.94 gear not even a sure grip [email protected] motor trend jan 1964 this issue also had the first test of a 64 gto

 

[biomedtechguy]

There was a Royal Pontiac "prepared" 63 Tempest with the 421HO 2x4bbl that ran a 3.9 second 0-60mph time. That was record setting, but it was obviously not showroom stock. Still, a little tweaking and tuning by the masters at Royal, and that is the kind of get up and go you could expect.
My wife's real GTO, Royal Bobcat Tribute car has a Tripower 421, and that is an example of what the top Bobcat option was for 1965.
Back to Ma Mopar, I notice the 426 HEMI shows up, a LOT on the list. 440 6bbl too!

 

[mopar blood]

Something like this is really hard to gauge. 50 years ago tire tech. was different so was fuel. i've had 440's that ran much better than others. 340's etc.. also the drivers. Ronnie Sox proved it! to be +or- a second is alot.
i had a 66 Hemi BelvedereI 4 speed all stock fresh rebuilt(stock) went 14.70 was starving for fuel. after 2 passes . came back next week with an electric fuel pump. and slicks ,click off 13.54

 

[Cranky]

My first car and first engine swap was with a 66 Belvedere II. Pulled out the tired out poly teen after logging 100k miles (45k hard miles with me behind the wheel ) and dropped in a very mild 383 with 915 heads, Offy 360 intake and unknown brand of headers from a totaled Super Bee. Also got the trans and factory 'high' stall converter from that car. The engine had a mild(?) cam that had a very smooth idle but never knew what the lift was and don't even know what the compression height of the pistons were. Anyways, a 750 DP topped it off. With 2.94 gears and crossing the line at the 2-3 shift, it ran a best of 14.87 with the headers uncorked. Wrote the ET on the bottom of the trophy but for some reason, didn't list the mph. Ran E/A2 and there usually wasn't many cars in that class if any so most runs were double trophy runs. When there were others in the class, I either won by a long ways or got my butt handed to me lol. This took place in early 1970. There were lots of cars out on the streets back then that were running 13's and high 12's but it was a bit rare to see low 12's or faster cars.....at least in this area. The guys with the fast cars lived in rent houses with small single car garages and had decent jobs doing construction or welding and every single dime went into their cars.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Just a few thoughts that come to mind in the discussion of all of this...
What an amazing era the "muscle car era" was! While there has been a natural competitiveness for speed since the beginning of the motorized vehicle, motorcycles, cars, etc, the pinnacle was the 60s and early 70s, as far as a widespread, focused aspect of performance being a or the major selling factor.
1964 saw the meteoric rise of the muscle car, the performance, price, parameters, and marketing of the 64 Pontiac GTO being a standard bearer for that niche.
Generally speaking, by 1972 it was over. There was an across the board plunge in compression ratio and horsepower in 1972, and although there were mods that could recapture the lost performance, turn key "as is" performance had taken a nosedive.
Another thing that comes to mind are the sensory experiences that go along with the muscle cars of that era. After suffering through roughly 20 years of abysmal, anemic performance, from roughly 1975 to 1995, performance came charging back, thanks to technology being able to satiate the economy and emissions requirements for American car manufacturers, and the "muscle cars" of the last 15 years are impressive.
BUT
For me, there are so many tactile sensations that go along with piloting a well tuned high performance, multiple carbureted, manual gear selected muscle car that is lost in many or most of the performance cars of today. I'm not disparaging modern muscle in any way, it's just a different experience.
And that takes me back to the point of this thread. Muscle cars of the 60s and early 70s and the performance that they actually produced on any given day at any given location depended, and depends, a LOT on the skill of the DRIVER, and also the ability to tune to get the most performance in any given situation. Selection of the right mix of aftermarket performance parts, when done right, can return big improvements in performance. That is something that I really like about ownership, stewardship, driving, racing, and wrenching on cars of the 60s and 70s. It's a very personal experience, and the results in many cases are a reflection of the person who does that work, makes those choices, shifts the gears, turns the screwdrivers and wrenches.
I respect and appreciate the blistering performance and reliability of today's performance cars, making the experience of what all of that is available to so many people, but for me, the kaleidoscope of what it means to own and drive a muscle car of the 60s and 70s is the best example of what the muscle car craze was all about.