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Thermoquad and low vacuum??

XCELLR8

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How does a stock thermoquad behave with a motor that has low vacuum? Vacuum is 6" to 7" at idle. I have been messing with a Edelbrock 800 cfm carb and can not get the off idle bog to go away, the rest of the carbs' operation is doing just fine.
 
Since I don't know...

Tell me about the engine. Size, performance parts, cam specs. Also the trans and gear ratio/tire size.

Often the off idle stumble is ignition and/or lack of fuel on the pump shot.

A TQ will act very similar. Though vacuum should rise a little and the signal should be a little stronger. The small 1.5 primary size isn't to much smaller than the 800 though it is a Venturi. IIRC, the 800's barrels are just that, barrels, straight holes.
 
Before I get judged, some of the parts that are in the motor are ones I had bought to put in my 451 stroker. My 16 year old son wants to be able to drive this car to school on occasion. So the machined stroker block is packed away in storage and I put some of the parts in my stock 400 4bbl and some are what was on the 400 I had machined. This is what the 400 has now.

Stock 1977 400 8.2-1cr
Comp cam Thumper cam (don't have cam card handy)
Edelbrock performer 383 intake
Stock heads with correct springs for cam
Edelbrock double roller timing chain
Edelbrock 800cfm electric choke AVS carb
MP electronic dissy with stock coil and Jegs hi-rev 7500 box
1 3/4" long tube headers
2 1/2" duel system with H-pipe out the rear of car
Stock 727 trans and converter (1800 stall I had read)
Stock 8 1/4" 2.94 gear open rear-end
275/60/15 rear tires at 28" OD

Parts I have but not installed yet because $$$

Used TCI street fighter 727 (will upgrade converter when installed)
Used 9 1/4" rear with 3.21 Sure Grip
 
I think the 800 way large for the application.
The TQ is worth a shot. If you want to use a square bore carb, I would be looking at. 650 CFM carb. AVS styled Edel., or Holley VC.
The thumper cam is small on specs. on a low compression mill. Combined with the Hwy. gears and tall tire, the combo is difficult to get rolling.

When you up the anti with the 3.21 cogs and higher stall, I would stay with the carb size I suggested or the TQ.
 
I have to ask this question. Why do you (and others) suggest a 650CFM carb when the stock TQ is around 780CFM (I've read)? Is it all about carb design? Or the fact that the TQ has small primaries with large secondary bores? Are you matching the 650 to the TQ primary bores? Just trying to understand.
 
The cam card or exact type would be good to know; there are several grinds in the Thumpr line. What caught my eye with all or this is that your vacuum is SO low, and seems abnormally low even for the larger cams in this line. Have you adjusted you idle timing and timing progression(<<especially this) and mixture to see if you can get that vacuum level up? How are the secondaries set at idle? CLosed? A bit open? I would be working on the vacuum level first as that is effecting all of the carb tune, and changing carbs will not help unless the smaller bores raise the vacuum by themselves which may or may not happen if timing is not right.

And the low static CR is going to be natrually doggy with large cam; the 2 are combining to kill your low RPM effective CR. Nothing you can do for that but to change cams or try some Rhodes lifters; it is a hydaulic cam so that can be done.

ON the 650, IMO, it will be more than adequate on the street; but do you drag race this car? Should be easier to tune and the spreadbore design will work better transitioning off idle; that is all pretty SOP advice (standard operating procedure).
 
The TQ is rated at 800 or 850 CFM, if your TQ has a 1-1/2 inch primary, you have the larger. The small primary side allows for good velocity passed the throttle blades.
The secondary side has throttle bores of 2-1/4 inch.
Being that the secondary side has a spring loaded air door adjustable via a pair of screws, this allows the TQ's secondaries to be adjustable to open when it is most advantages for you. (AKA, If you bog or run slower in the 1/4, tighten up the door a 1/4 turn until performance improves.)

A TQ is the most flexable carb. It is not the most adjustable, tuneable carb. It's flexabilty is why it is so love because you can mount it on dang near any engine and get very good performance. High compression, low compression, little cams, big cams & even race cams.

Once you get a good TQ & it dialed in, your set.

On a squarebore carb, the barrels are generally speaking, equal in size. There maybe a slight offset between the front and rear.
Square bore carbs that get larger in size tend to be a little big on the primary side for low compression engines. Adding a big cam can further the problem by creating less vacuum, less air flow, slower velocity passed the primary side of the carb.

Notice how on your Edelbrock 800 the primary throttle bores are simple bores with zero Venturi to them. That is the biggest issue you have with that carb on your engine. Go up to the last sentence in the above paragraph. That so applies to your engine carb set up.
This 800 is best suited to a big engine. And/or one that has all the heavy street strip parts that can take advantage of a large carb. A nicely put together (street- street strip) 440 or 500 could use this size AFB effectively.

A small engine, like your 400 is having a problem generating enough air flow past these huge throttle bores. In order to correct this, you will have to start changing a few things which leed to other issue of a to large carb. It becomes a pain chasing your tail around in circles when the carb is to big.

Through years of trial and error, a thing figured out why before I was born, carb sizes and perameters on most any given engine and performance level was generally figured out. Having the misfortune of carb issues on various carbs through out my time on cars, I can tell you these guys are right.

While I have had a 850 Holley on a mild 318, in a pinch, and tried to use it for a while, all I can say is it really sucked getting that thing somewhere live able until the 600 came in.

Everything about your engine build and the drive train behind it screams "I'm a driver!" All parts should be balanced. There is nothing about the description that would lead me to a carb over 650. While you could tune in a 750, the smaller carb will have crisper throttle response and allow for room for more mileage.

I hope I helped a little bit. Just remember the engines performance is combo dependent. The better the combo (balance of parts) the better it will perform.
 
Thank you for helping me understand. I have the bigger TQ at 1 1/2". All of the added parts are what I bought for the stroker motor or what came on my rebuilder motor. This is a full weight Cordoba with A/C. It is just a cruiser/car show car. Once my boy has some time behind the wheel, I was planning on getting a set of 915 heads to up my C/R along with the rear end swap. I am going to put my TQ on and see what it does, before looking for another carb. The cam is the smallest Thumper cam Comp makes. The specs are: Duration Intake 279 Exhaust 296. Lift Intake .486 Exhaust .473 Lobe separation 107
 
Is it bogging just off idle with light pedal pressure or are you trying to stomp it. Are the shooters working properly? The biggest hassle I've had with TQ's is getting the shooters to act right. 2nd biggest hassle is getting the secondary air door set correctly and it's a lot easier to do if you have that little special tool for it. Most of the time off idle bog is due to the air door opening way too early.....and accelerator pump shooters not being strong enough. So far the best street carb I've ever had the pleasure of using was a TQ on a 71 340 Cuda and the older carbs are better than the newer ones.
 
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