Trying to find the electrical draw that drains the battery...

[Ron Keefer]

Very informative thread, I've been chasing a similar problem with my 413 max wedge with 2" tubed headers. Spins great cold, spins very slow hot. Cables, grounds good, and battery load tested. Purchased an insulation kit for headers and starter, and a new mini starter recommended on this forum. The car starts, so I've been stalling on fixing it. Like others mentioned, this may be a difficult, time consuming project. Will post when I takle.

 

[Kern Dog]

I just changed out the starter. Not nearly as frustrating as I expected. The car lift made it so much easier. Having the freedom to stand while working makes so many car repairs a breeze compared to laying on your back.
Of course the header had to come loose but not out. That means spark plugs and wires come out too.
Access to the bolts wasn't bad.
After the new one was in, I went to crank on it. Bzzt . Huh? I hit the key again.... Bzzt.
The battery voltage was fine and I had tested this starter before installing it.

 

[Kern Dog]

I raised the car back up and looked around. These starters looked identical other than the electrical terminals being slightly different:
New one:

Old one:

I took a flash light and noticed that the big terminal on the starter was making contact with the engine block!
This is the old one again.

 

[Kern Dog]

I didn't want to pull the header again so I looked for a way to cut the excess length off of the terminal stud.
Hazard Fraught to the rescue!
I have a box of random HF tools that I didn't think I'd use but kept just in case.

It took 2 blades but I cut off 3/8" and it clears by almost 1/4".
Back together, the car STILL dragged when it was started cold but starts faster when warm. I got it up to 190 and it fired up within a couple of seconds.
This effort was a mixed result. I still have slow cold cranking but better warm cranking. Maybe there is some merit to the thought that the 15w40 oil I have is too thick.

 

[khryslerkid]

I don't know if the viscosity of oil is going to make that much difference. The 10w is 10w whether it's in combo with 30w or 40w. I don't know much about the "0"weight oils if it's thinner than a 10w.

I'm thinking you didn't have this problem before moving the battery?

Can you have a charger hooked up to this battery while cranking?

Maybe pull the plugs and let it sit overnight, then use a socket on the front pully and see what it takes to turn the crank.

Try retarding the timing?

Set a battery up front and use a short lead to the starter and see if it spins faster.

I'm not sure if a amp probe for AC would work the same on DC. The one that an electrician clamps around a lead to see how much amperage is being pulled through a cable.

Just throwing thoughts out there KD

 

[Kern Dog]

This is a recent problem. It has gone on for about a year. I moved the battery back in 2013.
It is tempting to do as you and Randy have suggested: Put the battery up front and see how it cranks when cold. The access to the starter isn't great with the header in place but it might be worth a try.
I let it sit for about an hour after a run up to operating temperature. S L O W cranking again. I did get it to start but this **** is totally annoying. It wasn't always like this. It used to start fairly easy cold or hot. I'd hear guys talk about hard starting after a drive and I couldn't relate.
Two different starters, 3 different batteries, 2 different Ford solenoids and it persists.
Just spitballin here....The factory relay only acts as a switch. It is either on or it is off. The starter is engaging so the Mopar relay is doing it's job. Maybe the starter cable is somehow not up to the task. I'm not going to just jump right in and replace it though. I'm more likely to try putting the battery back up front and see how that works out.

 

[khryslerkid]

I can understand your frustration. I hate doing "process of elimination" but sometimes it's your only option. Sooner or later you'll find what's causing it. Take a break from it when it gets too frustrating.

 

[kiwigtx]

When idling, the voltmeter shows this:
View attachment 964188

The hand held meter:

View attachment 964189

With the ignition on but not running:
View attachment 964190

This and the previous post showing 12.84 Volts leads me to ask this question...

Where is the in-dash Voltmeter connect to in the wring loom?

I ask this because, if you are on the alternator side of the voltage regulator, you will see full alternator output. If you are on the instrument side of the voltage regulator, the voltage will show as low when the engine is not running. It strikes me that you possibly have a faulty Voltage regulator as one of a number of issues.

I just skimmed through the entire thread again, and could not find the answer to what I am suggesting.

 

[Kern Dog]

This and the previous post showing 12.84 Volts leads me to ask this question...

Where is the in-dash Voltmeter connect to in the wring loom?

The water temp, oil pressure and gas gauges are all fed through their respective sensors as is the speedometer. The voltmeter had no dedicated supply. I can only guess that it is powered through the main feed to the cluster itself. There are 2 power supply feeds, one is constant, the other is 12V switched. Both are ran to the fuse panel.

 

[Aeronet]

It's not the battery, not the starter, not the positive cable from battery to starter, not the Ford solenoid, not the ground, not the guages, not the alternator (did I leave anything out?). It was fine before so it's not the system. What's left? Factory starter solenoid, cable to the starter...
I take it the connections aren't corroded or dirty. Shouldn't be the ballast resistor. Just not getting full voltage when in the start mode?
Something changed a year ago, what?

 

[Kern Dog]

It must be the loose nut behind the wheel.
Like any other cold start issue, this time of year I have to wait until the next day to try something new.
Tomorrow I will first try a different battery in the trunk location. If that makes no difference, I may move the AGM battery back to the stock location and try it there. The factory location does simplify matters and uses fewer parts to do the job. If the up front battery works well, I am going to shorten a factory battery tray since the Optima and AGM batteries are physically smaller. It will allow about 2 inches more for clearance around the LH valve cover, A/C hose, etc.
I am embarrassed to have such trouble with this.

 

[bearman]

Don't be it's a great learning listen for all of us. Kd that's why we're all here. To learn, help and understand the issues.

 

[kiwigtx]

It must be the loose nut behind the wheel.

no need for pictures here.

 

[kiwigtx]

Embarrassing....this was embarrassing...breaking down with what turned out to be a bad starter motor, outside my local Electrical Supplier with a shop full of electricians, and no tools. And driving a Ford to boot...they all know I am not a Ford guy.

Do not discount the starter motor.
I am going to relate a story from a recent problem with a Ferd car that we have. The engine is a 250cui straight 6, and EFI...blah blah. Anyway...I had been getting a load of fault codes up for a while now. One day not long ago, I drove for about 40 miles, pulled up at my electrical supply shop, and tried to restart after about 10 minutes. The engine would not even turn over. Immediately I suspected the battery, and sure enough - it was hot to the touch on both posts - Pos &Neg. So, we tried jump starting with another running car...no luck. All the engine would do was 'grunt' and not even look like turning over.
***Worth noting that this is quite normal - if the non-running car battery is dead, most likely another running car & battery will not help much.

I went over to the local SuperCreep Auto store and bought a new battery - big spendy (mucho denaro) ....installed, and still no go.

Called a local Tow Truck to drag the POS home for inspection. He pulls up, drops his ramps, and e are ready to winch the car on board the flat deck. Just for S&G the Towie says "Give me the keys" ....he jumps in and tried 3 times to start the car - third time it roared into life.

Luckily for me, I know the guy, so he said it was my lucky day, and no charge for stopping by. He wouldn't even take some beer money when offered. I get home and start trying to figure this out. The very next day, when the car was cold, it started fine...a little sluggish winding over....but it started.

I went out to see my buddy Cliff, and we discussed the situation over coffee.....decided the best course of action was to check the codes. The guy in the shop next door had the comprehensive Scanner tool...so he found dozens of codes. The crux was that it looked like the voltage was dipping just a little too much - and since the Ferd model we have is very sensitive to voltage variations, the on-board computer was throwing a hissy-fit every time we started it.

The decision was made to replace the starter motor - a bit radical at this stage, but other ideas didn't seem to stack up as much. I had remembered that the car had wound over a bit sluggish for some time. The original battery was put on a super duper battery charger, and showed up as being as good as the day it was installed....nothing wrong with it. After we installed the new starter motor, the car absolutely roared into life, with much more vigour than I could remember ...ever. At this point we decided to examine the old starter (it had been only in the car for about 3 years) - we found a massive build-up of carbon dust, and the commutator looked a bit heated. It would appear that the excessive carbon build-up was causing enough of an electrical short to pull down the battery voltage during cranking. This was what appeared to have been triggering the codes.

Since then, the codes have been cleared, touchwood none have returned, and the car can be cranked & started after 3 weeks of sitting idle. Before this, if it was left for anything more than one week, the starter motor was very sluggish.

So, please do not rule out your starter motor Greg......you never know.



Here's a picture of the car....photo courtesy of the Speed Infringement Division of the NZ Police.

View attachment 963012

 

[Kern Dog]

I just went out and rechecked the grounds. I actually have more than I thought. One goes from the LH head to the core support.
Another goes from the rear of the RH head to the firewall.
Yet another goes from the RH head to the bracket on the firewall that retains the spark box.
Then there is the long one that runs from the RH head all the way back to the battery. The battery also has a ground cable attached to the pinch weld of the RH wheel tub. I thought it was to the frame rail for some reason.
It just boggles me that it would crank slow when cold, fast when medium warm and then slow again with the engine fully warmed up. It seems that if the cables had defects, the symptoms would occur all the time.
I keep looking for something simple or obvious to pop up and so far, I've found no smoking gun.

It was 10;30 PM and the engine was warm to the touch but not hot. The temp gauge bumped just a bit over the 100 degree reading when I turned the key. This is the middle zone where it has been the easiest to start. I checked battery voltage and saw 12.8.
Yeah, it spun over like a new car three times in a row.

 

[hammond472]

It's a long shot but maybe the mechanical or vaccum advance or your distributor is not functioning properly and is somehow retarding the timing. I know when a timing chain jumps a tooth (usually from the pos. phenolic cam gear wearing out) it retards the timing and one of the symptoms is a sluggish or slow starting condition. I would check your distributor but I still think it's the battery.

 

[Kern Dog]

Moments ago:
Cold start, first of the day, fast cranking and an easy start up. Battery read 12.62. Last night, approx 12 hours ago it read 12.66.
With the other starter, cold starting was slow.
150 degree restart, the point where it has traditionally performed best, easy restart. Less than 1 revolution to restart engine.
190 degree restart, same as above. Fast crank, engine fired right up.
I'm letting it sit now to see how it starts after a heat soak.

 

[Builderguy]

Maybe the car gods looking down from above figured you had enough and have proved yourself worthy through dogged persistence and decided to finally let you have a win. Or, something was just a little loose and when refitted, it snugged up and is making a solid connection/ground. IDK but sometimes it is better not to ask why, just be happy and let it go.

 

[Kern Dog]

Moments ago:
Cold start, first of the day, fast cranking and an easy start up. Battery read 12.62. Last night, approx 12 hours ago it read 12.66.
With the other starter, cold starting was slow.
150 degree restart, the point where it has traditionally performed best, easy restart. Less than 1 revolution to restart engine.
190 degree restart, same as above. Fast crank, engine fired right up.
I'm letting it sit now to see how it starts after a heat soak.

Uhhh....good news at first, then...
A few hot restarts were like they were before, slow and strained. Checking the battery voltage afterwards, it was down to 11.8, 11.7 or so. It slowly rose after sitting but not all the way back.
I tried jump starting with another battery. Starting still slower than ideal but it did start. I pulled the AGM battery and put the other conventional battery in directly to the cables in the car. It started much easier.
I'm taking this AGM battery back and trading it for a conventional one. All along, this may have come down to the AGM not holding it's charge under a load, like some have suggested. I didn't want to suspect a $150 battery though!

 

[Sixpactogo]

One bad cell is all it takes. The vendor should do a direct replacement. How old is it?