Why did Chrysler hate Plymouth so?

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  1. Cojohnso1

    Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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    I have pondered this question in the past. Starting with the first generation hemis? None were available to any Plymouth. Even when Fury was carrying the intermediate market for Chrysler. Even in the "Hey day" of the muscle car era. When Plymouth was not only dominating the drag strip. But Nascar too. Plymouth was always last in Chrysler's future plans.

    I bring this up because I have an opportunity to participate or buy a 1999 Plymouth Prawler project. We believe the last year Plymouth Prawler made in the US. (Chrysler took over Prawler for 2000. Thus they knew Plymouth's demise in 1999?) Researching, the highest performance engine available to Prawler was the EGG 3.5 6cyl. Not a terrible engine. But certainly underpowered for a classified sports car? The transmission selection and design is less than ideal. Putting the transmission that far from the engine all but eliminated any chance of a manual transmission option? (Certainly a reasonable cost option.) With car being a roadster? There is room for alternative engine setup. So much for Chrysler's claims engineers had "Free reign?" I'm not seeing?

    I think im going to pass on the build. The car looks neat. And was a cool (But risky) idea with the Prawler? But this sure looks like the suits talked their way out of any success story for this platform? And perhaps Plymouth as a whole?
     
  2. moparedtn

    moparedtn Ed on the Ridge FBBO Gold Member

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    The 3.5 was the only engine ever offered in the Prowler (note the correct spelling of the name)-
    and that was the case from the onset of the introduction of the car.
    Yes, that probably cost them some sales for sure, but it still was a capable performer and that
    would have been the case no matter what divisions' showrooms wound up offering the car.

    As far as your assertion that Chrysler "hated" Plymouth goes, that's a bit of a stretch.
    You refer to the 50's - well, from the onset of the Plymouth division, Chrysler always positioned Plymouth
    as their "economy" or "entry level" division, much the same way as GM positioned Chevrolet and
    Ford positioned - well, Ford (versus Lincoln or Mercury).
    With that came certain limitations as to what equipment was offered in them, in order to keep costs
    down and competitive - and the pecking order went up in classes from there all the way to Imperial.

    Of course, by the mid-60's, you could get the same drivetrains in Plymouths as you could in Dodges....
     
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    • 69Coronetrt

      69Coronetrt Well-Known Member

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      The answer to your question lies in product marketing hierarchy and how it changed over time. The concept was to start at the low cost field and move up within the different divisions over time to the high cost car.

      Chevy-Pontiac-Olds-Buick-Cadillac
      Ford-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln
      Plymouth-Dodge-DeSoto-Chrysler-Imperial

      Then you have to consider the level within the particular make.

      Over time you've seen this concept evolve where unsuccessful (DeSoto Edsel) and redundant (Olds, Pontiac and Mercury) brands go away.

      Plymouth was the entry level car designed to be the lowest cost. Therefore loading up a Plymouth with high(er) cost items like first generation hemis when lower cost assemblies were available didn't make any sense. Adding extra cost items like moldings increased the price. A Plymouth was designed to be low cost transportation.
       
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      • Cojohnso1

        Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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        The difference? GM treated Chevy much more favorably. It's not even a fair comparison? Ford? I still have a hard time figuring out their thought process. I do tip my hat to the devoted Ford guys. The whole "Engine family" thing makes sence to them. As well as Fords very late entry to aftermarket efforts. But still willing to make work at even higher costs.
         
      • 70chall440

        70chall440 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        I think many people make the mistake of thinking that the car companies worked emotionally which they did not, they did everything based on revenue generation. The key was/is "spend less make more" and Chrysler certainly was not immune to this thinking. Car companies ceased being run by "car" people many decades ago. If Chrysler "hated" Plymouth back in the day they would have killed it off like Desoto; but that said the "hate" was not emotional in the way we personally think of hate, it was business hate; meaning something cost too much to make and didn't make enough in return.
         
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        • Cojohnso1

          Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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          You're right. "Hate" is WAY too strong of word. And obviously coming from emotions.
           
        • Dave6T4

          Dave6T4 Well-Known Member

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          Their is a guy up here in Ontario that has been putting 5.7 Hemi's in Prowlers. He displayed a couple of them at London, Ontario Autorama a couple of years ago. I didn't get his name or location, though.
           
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          • Budnicks

            Budnicks You Can Just Thank Me Later FBBO Gold Member

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            Petty was a Plymouth Man way before he was a Dodge man
            Chrysler lured him back into a Plymouth with the Superbird
            they would have had him in a Dodge way earlier if they
            'hated Plymouth'

            not that that means anything, but part of history

            but;
            I also highly doubt it's because
            Chrysler hated the Plymouth brand
            IMO;
            Chrsler, it was bought/invested in & merged into by other companies
            damn near bankrupted a couple of times, went thru hard times,
            several different managements etc.
            I think that was more of the deciding factors it the Plymouth Brand
            actually going away...

            It was the accountants & the bean counters that killed off Plymouth
            solely a financial decision

            just like Olds & Pontiac or Mercury & Edsel
             
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            • 69a100

              69a100 Well-Known Member

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              I find that funny that you say Chrysler hated Plymouth. I thought that Chrysler hated Mopar because they said NO, NO, NO to installing a 426 Hemi in what would've been the 300M in 66, or any other Chrysler labeled car. But what do I know?
               
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              • Cojohnso1

                Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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                I'm also guessing that Plymouth was taking sales from Dodge. Which would have been counter productive. It's
                L
                Lol. You might be on to something? It's "Mopar" Chrysler hates?
                 
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                • multimopes

                  multimopes FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                  I think that it wasn't anything internal to Chrysler, but had more to do with "1998 the merger of equals", which was a crock of shit! In other words, it was Daimler-Benz already gutting the company after they got hold of it. They milked every last penny they could as soon as they could. They dumped dozens of Chrysler engineers and cut the company to the bone. Anything Chrysler wanted to do was altered and or cut. If I had money, I would buy a top of the line Mercedes and set it on fire while I roast hot dogs over the flames. Scumbags! :icon_fU:
                   
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                  • moparedtn

                    moparedtn Ed on the Ridge FBBO Gold Member

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                    Yep, and of course people have been doing that to (ugh) PT Barnum, errr, I mean Cruisers for years now.
                    It's sort of our version of "swap an LS in it!" the bowtie idjits do...
                     
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                    • moparedtn

                      moparedtn Ed on the Ridge FBBO Gold Member

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                      Correct. Daimler bought Chrysler to flip it - and in typical corporate maneuvers these days, they stripped it
                      down to barely operational so that margins looked good on the quarterly spreadsheets.
                      Of course, when corporations do that, they typically leave a company behind that's barely functional and dying on the vine...
                      and so did that next holding company, for that matter.

                      For all we know, Peugot/Fiat/whateverthefluck is doing that again as we speak.
                       
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                      • Ron H

                        Ron H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                        Yeah and companies buy others cuz they have ONE brand they want ownership of and not or not so much the others...AMC/JEEP anyone?
                         
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                        • Cojohnso1

                          Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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                          I believe Mergers and Acquisitions is the culprit of the fall of the middle class. This is what dried up small industrial business starting long before big foreign market influences. If one owns a factory? It's yours. Do as you will. But once you brought the company public? You already sold the company's sole. But the bean counters found another way? Corporate mergers. (Actually more what Moparedtn was referring. Cherry pick and liquidate the competition.) I have trouble naming even one publicly traded company merger that benefitted labor and/or the economy as a whole? I can name one breakup that had huge benefits? AT&T.

                          It's why I favor a scaled corporate tax structure. If Citizens United says "Corporations are people too?" Then let's put that to the test. Corporations on the same tax structure as the rest of us? Ma & Pa small business would love it. Instead of the current 26% flat rate? 12% on the first $200k of net profit. Scaling up to top 37% for the top dogs. (Which they don't even come close to paying with their loopholes. "Offshore tax havens #1") Eliminate or at least restructure that? And now we are on to something? This would give incentive to breakup corporate structure to smaller entities.

                          I know this got WAY off track. But we keep pointing our fingers to other countries. When we are still the 600lb gorilla. China? There are a number of ways to slap their influence back.
                           
                        • Jerry Hall

                          Jerry Hall FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                          Don't down my PT Cruiser Ed.
                          20181121_144753.jpg
                          It's quicker than than a Hemi. Oops.... it is a Hemi.
                           
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                          • Lefty71

                            Lefty71 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                          • multimopes

                            multimopes FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                            Some of the stuff that Chrysler came up with while under Daimler was incredible. Check out the Chrysler ME412 and the Dodge Tomahawk, they were for an obviously tiny market but were amazing as well as some of their other concepts. I think I may have come on a bit strong but the whole engulf & devouer business model is what forced me out of the best job I ever had.
                             
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                            • Cojohnso1

                              Cojohnso1 Well-Known Member

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                              I give Chrysler a reprieve on their letter cars. Some of them are works of art. And I wouldn't tackle a tough restoration on one of them if its all I had to do? That much metal and folds. The details? Let alone finding the performance parts for those big wedges?
                               
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                              • 70chall440

                                70chall440 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                                Personally I think Daimler actually allowed Chrysler to move ahead. Sure they may have fired a bunch of people but that is very normal during a merger. People forget that Cerberus owned Chrysler for awhile and didn't do them any favors, at lease Daimler further things like the SRT line.

                                I don't know for sure but I am willing to bet that if one were able to really study Chrysler's financials going back 20-30 years or so you would find a lot waste, misspent funds and a general lack of fiscal responsibility much like most large corporations.
                                 
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