452 Head performance

[66_B_Body4ever]

I understand that there could be a thousand different setups that affect ultimate engine hp and torque, but does anyone have info on the performance potential of the 452 castings? I know they share alot of the same characteristics of the 906 with the advantage of hardened seats. My cylinder head guy says with work on the flow bench he has worked the 452's to 600+ hp. I am considering a 500 in. stroker kit from 440 source to combine with these reworked heads along with an Edelbrock rpm dual plane intake, no cam selection as yet. This will be a streetable combo with trips to the strip on occasion. I was tempted to buy a set of RPM heads but my head guy says he can work with the 452's...

Advice...experience...results?
I have looked through the site here at other 440 builds with great interest but hope that someone else has walked this line before.

BTW she'll be powering a mini tubbed 66 Belvedere.
Thanks in advance.

Mopar or no car!

 

[69 Runner]

452's have induction hardened seats. You do much grinding on them during a valve job, you will cut through the hardness.

A 346 or 452 has a slightly flatter intake runner than a 906, but has more short side radius in the exhaust runners than a 906. So what little you loose in one place, you gain in the other.

They (452's) will work well. Anyone who tells you differently will probably try to convince you the heads on a 383 "Magnum" or a 440 "Magnum" were different than a "non magnum" motor.

Run away....as fast as you can

 

[696pack]

I am using them on my 69 six pack Bee 523 stroker simply because they were on the engine I had built. I built the car to run in F.A.S.T. if it ever gets to the southwest as well as for the street, and figured even though they were not 906s that no one would protest it. They are pretty much the same and most people THINK the 906s are superior. My engine builder said there was actually some small advantage to these heads but I don't remember what it was. No matter anyway as they are totally perfromance modified anyway.

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

696pack,
So what kind of numbers does the 69 run in the 1/4 or 1/8th mile? Have you ever had your baby on a dyno?

 

[696pack]

696pack,
So what kind of numbers does the 69 run in the 1/4 or 1/8th mile? Have you ever had your baby on a dyno?

Never had it on a dyno OR at the strip--yet.

The engine, rear end, interior, engine compartment, and trunk are done, but the exterior still needs to be painted. It is not real respectable looking at this point. When I get it painted I will head for the strip. So far all I have done is a few short "test drives." The car "feels like" it is a mid 11 second car but that remains to be seen. The rear end is a 4.56:1 and I PLAN (there is that word again:rolling to install a Passon performance overdrive 4 speed in the car eventually.

This is a copy and paste from another thread that tells the story on my car, so you can judge for yourself what kind of times you might think the car will be capable of. I would like to hear anyones thoughts on it.

I have a 1969 440 six pack Super Bee that has a new 523 stroker in it with factory exhaust manifolds. I built the car to somewhat F.A.S.T. standards as I like my cars to maintain a pretty much stock appearance. I have not yet had it to the track but it certainly "feels" like it will run high to mid 11s. The cam is a roller with 112 degree lobe seperation. Intake .022 valve lash hot .630 valve lift 284 duration Exhaust .024 .608 288, and after indexing the lift is 420/244 I and 405/252 E. The stock heads were ported and flowed. Of course it is balanced and blueprinted. For some reason the compression is not shown on the blueprint sheet, but it will run on pump premium. I have the stock original six pack intake and carbs with all of the Promax add ons. With all of the parts and labor I have around $11K in it including R&R.

Some of the winning F.A.S.T. guys are running up to 14:1 compression. We do not have F.A.S.T. racing here in the southwest and even if they did I would not go to those extremes. I want something that is still streetable for a 2 hour drive or more. My car is borderline as it has some around town surging due to the cam.

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

Sounds good to me, keep us posted and thanks for your interest. I will post flow bench numbers on my heads as they progress. I would be satisfied with a car that ran in the eleven's.

 

[rumblefish360]

Talk to a buddy of mine wgo is MoPar all day long. He's a pro head porter for a few decades now. Here is his new web site link; http://bjrracing.com/
He'll answer your questions about the big block heads. He also races a big block.
Click here; http://bjrracing.com/big_block_heads.htm

 

[383man]

I run 906 heads on the mild 440 in my 63. I did some porting on them myself and all I can tell you is that the eng makes right around 500 flywheel hp going by the 1/4 mile mph. It has pushed my 3700 lb 63 to 11.50's so far. Its not a stroker as it is stock stroke and I use the MP .557 solid cam. But if it were me I would want to take advantage of the cubes and run a better head then the factory heads. The Eddy's will outflow the factory heads stock for stock and ported Eddy's will flow better then worked factory 452's or 906's. There are better heads then the Eddy's or Stealth heads but they will cost more. To me the Eddy's work nice on a mild stroker. Ron

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

Thanks to all that replied, helped a great deal with my decision...

 

[mr.belvedere]

I also used the 452's on my .055 over 440, because of availability and the hardened seats. we ported them to near max wedge size and profile and installed 2.18/1.81 valves. the engine pulls hard from 3000 to 7000 rpm and love it. the only catch-when i removed my 1 7/8 primary cheapie headers and installed some Doug's 2" primary headers during my cam change, i realized that the 452 heads had a "lip" cast into the exhaust flange, just below the valve cover rail. this prevents the header flange from sealing against the head-I was pissed, and the people at Doug's had no idea either. so, I don't know if this is true for all 452 castings, or just certain years. but be careful, i found out after the headers were in, and had to work over fresh paint to cut a 45 degree bevel on the top of the header flange with a die grinder, and then re-install using double gaskets and ultra-copper. no leak's though!:edgy:

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

I'll look out for the fit up issue, thanks!

 

[696pack]

I failed to mention in my posts above that my use of a stock type head is strickly to adhear to F.A.S.T. type rule venue. If that was not a concern I would have bought Edelbrock or 440 Source Aluminum heads.

I don't think you can beat the price of the out of the box, read to bolt on performance vs. all out porting on the 906 or 452 heads and the cost of the porting work these days (if you don't do your own and have to pay someone else) makes the aftermarket aluminum heads very attractive.

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

Does anyone else have experience with the 440 source aluminum heads? My cylinder head guy reported big inconsistencies in flow, port volume etc between runners. They are definetely priced right.

 

[Chatt69chgr]

Unless you have to adhere to certain race rules, the Edelbrock RPM or 440 Source 84cc Aluminum head is vastly better than the iron stock head. They weigh half as much and should a crack develop being Aluminum they can be heliarced. But the most important feature is they are closed chambered heads. All the BB heads from 68 up were open chambered. The closed chamber allows you to build a quench engine which helps reduce detonation which can quickly destroy an engine. You do need to increase the compression ratio by approx 1 point when going to the Aluminum to compensate for heat loss due to the higher thermal conductivity of the aluminum vs cast iron--approx 10 to 10.3 to 1 for the AL vs 9 to 9.3 to 1 for the cast iron heads. As has been noted, these aftermarket heads flow better than ported cast iron pieces. Money wise, by the time you work over the cast iron heads you can buy a set of aluminum ones noting that you can't just bolt them on out of the box as advertised. They do need to be checked over for proper valve sealing, guide clearance, and rocker/spring retainer clearance.

 

[696pack]

To the original poster.

I think that one of the first things you need to determine is weather or not you are going to run headers or exhaust manifolds. From there you will need to consider your cam choice and compression in order to determine what heads are necessary. Other things to consider are if you are trying to keep the exterior engine appearance stock or if you don't care.

You have to remember that it is not hard to create a 500 h.p. 440 with stock cubes, carb upgrade, stock heads with a little porting, an upgraded cam, blueprinting, and headers. I also think that blueprinting is often overlooked or underrated as a hugh power adder to any engine.

The factory exhaust manifolds are the bottleneck or limiting h.p. factor on any big block so the upgrading of heads weather they be aftermarket aluminum or factory type iron heads are probably not as big of a consideration (except for the weight savings) if you are going to run stock manifolds. There are a couple of exceptions such as the Max Wedge and Hemi exhaust manifolds which flow far better then the 440 H.P. manifolds.

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

I will be running headers, and a stock appearance is not critical as I am restifying the 66 base 318 Belvedere HT. Intake will likely be a dual plane (performer RPM). Streetable with the odd trip to the strip for a little fun. the car came sub frame connected and mini tubbed with a MP spring relocation kit installed and a 6 point cage (cage will be removed for streetable functionality). 500+ horse would be my ultimate goal. No cam choice as yet. haven't decided whether to run power brakes or manual (discs will be incorporated). So...depending how lumpy we go will help me decide whether or not power brakes will be used. Anyone running a similar setup have suggestions?
Thanks 696pack.

 

[696pack]

I will be running headers, and a stock appearance is not critical as I am restifying the 66 base 318 Belvedere HT. Intake will likely be a dual plane (performer RPM). Streetable with the odd trip to the strip for a little fun. the car came sub frame connected and mini tubbed with a MP spring relocation kit installed and a 6 point cage (cage will be removed for streetable functionality). 500+ horse would be my ultimate goal. No cam choice as yet. haven't decided whether to run power brakes or manual (discs will be incorporated). So...depending how lumpy we go will help me decide whether or not power brakes will be used. Anyone running a similar setup have suggestions?
Thanks 696pack.

With street manners being a consideration you need to build your engine around your cam. You can get away with more cam with a 4 speed rather than an auto. Mine is borderline with the 4 speed as it likes to surge a little idling around town. You should have no problem obtaining 500+ h.p. with headers.

If I were you I would be looking for a set of 1967 440 915 heads. They are close chamber and easy to make a quench motor which will run on punp gas with higher compression, which is another consideration for a street car.

 

[daredevil]

Indy ezs are another good head choice. if it will be a streeter the aluminum heads will help with detonation on pump gas. You should be good to 10.5 to 1 with aluminum.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Not that this late reply will make a difference in your decision, but my $.02 on the 452's is this. They have the flat intake port, which is similar to the old 516 and even the Max Wedge heads and according to the old race bulletins that port design doesn't flow as well as the later stuff. In 67, probably because engineering learned something, we get the 915 with the raised floor followed by the 906 and both have improved flow over the older stuff. Even the later DC stage IV and V heads are based on the higher floor, or "improved short side radius". The 906 (because of the open chamber) I think is really an emissions version of the 915. Lowering CR = less thermal efficiency, but more important for the EPA = lower oxides of nitrogen produced. An old race bulletin states that the 915 head flows within 95% of the max Wedge head. With it's superior short side radius, which I think offers a more laminar flow through the port, together with the quench area, you can't get a better production head for a big block than the 915. It's been proven by pocket porting and big valves that the 452's work, but I would still stick with the 915 or the 906 or just go aftermarket.

I think the number one reason for the growth in popularity of the 452 and later castings is because these days they are more available than the earlier stuff, plus have the hardened seats. I have a set of very late (346?) castings if someone wants them.

 

[66_B_Body4ever]

I realize that the 915's would have been the better choice, and perhaps should have waited as now I have come across a set...but the 452's are ported and flowed with some impressive numbers. My head specialist actually prefers the 452's over the 906's due to the improved flow characteristics on the intake side. The intake is flowing 284 cfm @ .507 lift, I won't quote the exhaust side as I don't remember the exact figure. He figures he can get a little more out of them if necessary. I have to make the decision now to go to the 2.18/1.81 valves over the stock configuration. I realize that I will have to have hardened seats installed if I go this route as this will be a pump gas motor. I am impressed with my cylinder head guys work to say the least...it helps when me's a Mopar fanatic as well...Cam selection next and purchasing a set of valves. He likes Ferrea first and Manley second for valves, on this engine will the Ferrea 5000 series be enough or should I go with the 6000 series? As for the bumpstick, I would like a little vacuum at idle and will be using a stall converter (28-3200 rpm range). With all the experience here can anyone offer thier tested and true experiences with camshaft/stall converter selection? I have 3:91 and 4:88 gear sets, likely will run the 3:91's or even find a set of 3:55's
Thanks. all input is valued...