Suspension for pro-touring like handling

Sorry to jump in here, but I've been reading through posts now for the last 4 weeks but can't really get a straight answer (it's like discussing politics in a room with 10 different people lol)

Is a full front end conversion like the RMS and it's likes the only way to get the car stiffer and handle like a modern car? My "Problem" is that car is already converted with disc brakes on all four corners (SSBC) so a new K-member setup would be new spindles which equals new brakes. Today car sits at great hight (see attached picture) but is really "soft" and you can rock the car from side to side without any effort. I want it stiffer and better road handling without the major investment:

Cost for importing the whole kit would be price of unit + shipping * 1.3 * 1.1 which is ALOT of money. Of course it's a nice to have feature with double adjustable coil overs and God knows, but tbh - I had it on my 800 rwhp LX-car and spent a decent amount of adjustment before I got it right - and then never changed it.

That car was a track monster, but my 69 Roadrunner will be a more of a cruising at highway speeds kind of car (I won't run any track, some occasional street races to hunt Mustangs and Camaros) but mostly enjoying scenic touring across the country.

I'm fairly new to the B-body family and don't really know where to start - can some kind soul point me to alternatives to full front end conversion?

There is plenty you can do to these torsion bar cars make them handle a lot better. First thing would be bigger torsion bars. I think I went with 1.04 bars on my big block charger. you can also get stiffening plates for the lower control arms. Tubular uppers, and a bigger sway bar to finish out the package. Places like P-S-T and Firm Feel have these parts. I think you would be really surprised at the difference these parts will make in the drivability in your car.

Before you do anything order Bilstein shocks for all 4 corners. It is absolutely crazy the improvement this makes over the stock setup.. anyone who has driven my car will attest to the same.

dose the car have a sway bar ? if not that's a Huge improvement for Front and rear

Hotchkiss makes a full torsion bar setup that is said to be pretty damn close to the coil-over conversions as far as handling potential. Look up E-Maxx Challenger, and I think Dan Weishaar's RoadRunner is running Hotchkiss suspension as well. FirmFeel and some others offer modified steering boxes and parts to quicken the ratio.

Like others say, tube uca, boxed lca, subframe connectors, torque boxes, front and rear sway bars and good shocks and it will handle real nice and not break the bank. You can run all the 11/16 steering components and do a sector support for the box too.

Check out QA1,
you can piecemeal the parts, as you need them
not break the bank either

O/S sway bars front & rear will help a ton
I got Summit's Brand a while back {like 10 years ago ADDCO's IIRC}
1-3/8" front/1" rear adjustable they work & fit great
a bit harsher ride, I got them before my project snowballed...

you'll certainly need quality shocks

if your sticking with Torsion bars, go with the 1" bars

good tires & rims, light weight & wider helps too

better steering box get rid of the bump steer

lower center of gravity depends on you definition of better handling
IMO the OE stuff is weak & flexes a lot

tubular stuff is nice looking & light too,
not really necessary thou, depends on the level of performance your after

If you want to go with coil overs than do the complete set up

Magnum Force,
great people to deal with

RMS

SPC, double adj. UCA's

Gerst Suspension

PST,
we have FBBO members discount check the venders section

Just Suspension

Ride-Tech,
I know a few people that have them & they really like them...

Hotchkiss

Mancini Racing
Summit Racing
Jegs

even QA1, I've used them for a while now,
even the old Capps Automotive stuff, QA1 bought them out a while back
I've had great fit, performance & durability with them
really reasonably priced, you can get much of it through Summit Racing
in stock too...
QA1 has great tech support too...

like you said
"ask 10 people you'll get 7-10 different answers"

IMO hers mine...LOL
"depends on what your final expectations actually are,
reality &/or your budget, your knowledge base, ability to fabricate/weld etc.
or if your just bolting stuff on, makes a hell of a difference too"...

Check out Firm Feel www.firmfeel.com/

Nothing but Mopars and several articles from Mopar Action using their parts.

The aftermarket front end setups look pretty. They seem to attract people that have a belief that the new stuff somehow addresses the weak links to the factory arrangement.
Here is my take:
These cars were built with some damn good, solid engineering. The front suspension and steering performed great as they were designed and intended. Once you get 75,000 or more miles on them, the bushings start to fail, the tie rod ends loosen up and the car feels sloppy. Sometimes, people buy these cars with 100,000 or more miles on them and complain that they handle poorly. They read ads about the RMS, Magnum Force or other NON torsion bar replacement kit and think that the new stuff must be better than the stock stuff. They install the new shiny parts and WOW! The car handles so much better! Well, no ****....You are comparing a new suspension to a worn out suspension!
The factory suspension and steering can be upgraded to feel and handle much better than ever. Personally, I chose to stick with the stock based stuff primarily due to the cost but after reading and researching, I've learned a bit more. The stock stuff was durable. Beefed up it is even more so. Add in a reinforced K member with gussets to stiffen the steering box mounts, gusset the lower control arms, install 1.06 to 1.15 torsion bars, weld in subframe connectors, add a 1.25 sway bar...The advice is pretty much the same. The RMS stuff has been discussed and dissected here and elsewhere. Rick Ehrenberg from Mopar Action spelled out his distrust for the setup in print a few times. In short, he thought the design was flawed and has obvious deficiencies in terms of strength and 100,000 mile durability. I have searched high and low to find anyone that says that their car runs faster in a road course with an aftermarket front end setup. Andy Finkbiener and Tim Werner ran their 68 Valiant with a 427 small block at over 160 mph with the stock based setup. Rick Ehrenberg had great success with their stock based 69 Valiant on the east coast.
The new stuff might ride better. My buddy helped his kid install a Magnum Farce front end kit in his 64 Valiant. The car has a wider turning radius now because the steering rack has less range. The car rides stiffer but that is okay. The suspension travel is less though and the car handles about the same. BIG improvement???? Not really. All of this to gain more header clearance??? Really? TTI makes headers for these cars...

I have been thinking to ask is anyone has done a back to back comparison of a properly upgraded stock suspension vs one of the aftermarket solutions.

I would LOVE to see one. It would surely highlight any advantage there might be.

All I can add to this is I'm running the stock style torsion bar suspension and am very happy with the handling. I hate body roll and feeling unstable in the corners but my car feels just fine taking corners at high speeds. What I did was go stiffer front and rear, lower it 2", 18 fronts 19 rears, all poly bushings, tubular upper control arms and the stock steering.

If most of us were racing ( road course) on a regular basis, I think there could be some significant KNOWLEDGE based discussion on this topic. It certainly comes up often enough. Having said that, those who have modified existing systems or installed after market systems all seem to be pretty happy. Sure, there are a few who are not but for as much as we drive like racers,all the comments are pretty consistent. I think one of the most common issues is fittment and clearances for other components.
I am happy with my RMS front and 4 link rear. It does any thing I need.

I will also admit that the cost of the aftermarket K member setups killed it for me. I have often built cars a piece at a time. I can easily afford a few hundred $$$ at a time.

I've been thinking this back and forward and I think I'll stick with the stock k-member and upgrade with beefier parts.

Contender 1: Hotchkis TVS: http://www.hotchkis.net/product/196...suspension-system/?mk=43&yr=1969&md=374&sm=20
Priced at about $2800 but comes without dampers?

Seems that the qa-1 top level kit is with k-member, and I was thinking about how they designed the kit - apparently they want you to replace it - else they wouldn't have stuck it already in the level 2 kit?

You think that I'd be happy with the kit above + new bilsteins?

Disclaimer not meant at anyone specific;
so don't anyone get all butt-hurt...lol

Anyone ever notice that;
It always seems it's the guys that don't have
a bunch of aftermarket stuff, are it's biggest detractors too,
have a bunch to say about negatives, of the aftermarket pieces...
Some with no personal experiences too, just conjecture/opinions...

I noticed a biggest differences when driving on really curvy roads
up here in the mountains,
the tubular components take some weight off the nose
it's not a ton of weight, but it certainly helps with center of gravity
body roll, brake, tire & shock wear, even fitment clearances are better
even on some wheels & tires etc. better with some of the sprung &
unsprung weight
the adjustability is far better than OE crap, caster camber spindles angles etc.
for real cornering, being able to get a better stance & ride height,
for if you want to do some autocross, or hard driving or even track days,
{even without lowering spindles} taking out bump steer that plagues OEM stuff

IMO the big sway bars, especially the addition of a rear bar,
made the biggest differences
without sacrificing drivability too, the shocks were a big help too...
I have EIS Edelbrock gas shocks now, had them on a couple cars,
seem to be good, it's what I had on the shelf too, so I went with it...

The stuff I used didn't break the bank either, I'm not really a cheapskate,
price-point shopper either, I just use what I know has worked for me or
people I know well in the past, I'm not going to just piss away $$$ either,
in relative to the rest of the car it's cheap thou,
makes for a much more balanced car, without adding ballast...

My cars have mostly been drag cars in search of a corner though,
not the typical build, not a pro-touring not a dedicated drag car,
something in the middle...
I love the aftermarket stuff,
I have some of the more affordable stuff {QA1 & Summit Racing}
I've used them on 5 cars now {QA1 stuff was org. Capps Automotive}

I can attest it's better handing, flatter handling,
like on rails compared to unmodified OEM stuff,
albeit you can do allot with modifying the OE stuff too,
I just chose to put the OEM stuff away &
use quality Aftermarket components on most my builds...

The biggest regrets I have is the bolt in rear steer style
Uni-Steer Rack & pinion, limits headers & oil pan styles drastically...
not too much worse than the OEM stuff thou, just not real race headers,
I'm making my own anyway...
A bit less turning radius too, but I can live with that part...
If I was to do it again I'd use a front steer rack & pinion
{where steering arms/lower ball joints were facing forward &
a rack in-front of the engine instead}
otherwise I'm really happy with the Capps & QA1 stuff,
I'm putting it on my current project too, when I have them already especially,
I find something that worked & I stick with it...

IMO far too many people let someone else,
that doesn't know their combo or their car,
make their decisions for them...
When you need to decide what's best for you, your specific combo
& seemingly budget too, that seems to be the biggest deterrents...

Thanks,

I'm looking at the qa-1 kit as well and I do like the idea where you can shop after your wallet's size and keep on adding parts - but that new K-member isn't really what I wanted to do...How much do you think it would hurt me if I went with the stock one but added parts?

Dreadl0ck said:

Thanks,

I'm looking at the qa-1 kit as well and I do like the idea where you can shop after your wallet's size and keep on adding parts - but that new K-member isn't really what I wanted to do...How much do you think it would hurt me if I went with the stock one but added parts?

Click to expand...

I did it for a while, I took out the OE K-member &
welded it solid all the way around, {not sure that's even necessary}
the only real reason I did the tubular K-member stuff is I wanted it,
I liked it I liked the really clean look of it too...
I ran Capps/QA1 stuff for just UCA's for a while than added the LCA's
latter the OS Alum. strut-rods,
than switched them out for Dynamic adj. Strut-rods,
freed up the frontend travel a bit for drag racing,
no real advantage for handling except extremely adjustable
if you change, caster & camber or spindles angles in anyway, far better,
to get it perfect, I use the SPC double adj. UCA's now,
again it's more of a drag racing thing, than handling,
albeit make for infinite adjustability...
I wanted to lighten the front end, but moving the battery to the right rear
of the trunk & a bunch of alum. components, did far more for balance thou...

a couple of the kits that were $3500+
{albeit I know people that love them too, If I was to go that route
I'd go with Magnum Force, I've had a few talks with Ron Jenkins
the owner a few times over the past 30 years, met him personally too}
to me wasn't money well spent, wasn't necessary for my needs
but if that's what you think is best, than go for it I say...

So basically if you want to get serious about handling, like dedicated road course or mountain runner, the coil-over setups could give you an adjustability edge over the T-bar setups.

If you're on a budget or just want a firmer ride so it doesn't handle like a potato, upgraded stock setups should do you fine. Tubular k-frames and control arms are available for it, which can give some added accessibility and weight reduction.