“Video” Another Possible Hydraulic Roller Lifter Failure?

[Butch Harley]

Just cruising home last night and the engine started to ticking. What’s funny is before this happened I had just talked to the guys from Indy and Keith Black about building a 572 and they both said throw the hydraulic rollers away after I talked about using some of my top end.

Sorry about your lifters but in the video I could not help but notice your alternator! If you can I would like more info on it THANKS.

 

[B-mine]

Well the passenger side wasn’t good either and I’m missing a piece of metal. Cams junk and who knows what else. Drivers first with pics and then passenger side. I knew it sounded loud on both sides. Would a lifter bore issue cause this or are these hydraulic rollers just junk in these big blocks?

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Happened to me, Trick flow top end, had Crower rollers, replaced with Trick Flow, way beefier, had to go through the whole motor.

 

[70ChargerRT]

Happened to me, Trick flow top end, had Crower rollers, replaced with Trick Flow, way beefier, had to go through the whole motor.

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Those were Trick Flow Rollers that went out on my car. I think Morels make them.

 

[70ChargerRT]

Sorry about your lifters but in the video I could not help but notice your alternator! If you can I would like more info on it THANKS.

I think this one has 100 idling amps for my fans.

 

[Rick62]

I had similar problems with the hydraulic rollers in the 440 in my Savoy. An engine builder friend of mine suggested I needed to check the end play in the cam. He added that the stock Mopar timing covers are notoriously flexible. I changed to this timing cover and carefully set the end play. Problem solved. MRE - Billet Timing Cover

 

[70ChargerRT]

I had similar problems with the hydraulic rollers in the 440 in my Savoy. An engine builder friend of mine suggested I needed to check the end play in the cam. He added that the stock Mopar timing covers are notoriously flexible. I changed to this timing cover and carefully set the end play. Problem solved. MRE - Billet Timing Cover

I had similar problems with the hydraulic rollers in the 440 in my Savoy. An engine builder friend of mine suggested I needed to check the end play in the cam. He added that the stock Mopar timing covers are notoriously flexible. I changed to this timing cover and carefully set the end play. Problem solved. MRE - Billet Timing Cover

That’s pretty interesting. I’ve about come to the notion of eating a big pile of crow and doing a Hellcat swap. I’ve called like 5 engine builders it’s about like talking to the Gods of days of old. Even the guy mentioned in the write up about this timing Cover told me that big blocks leak and if I wanted a leak free rear main to buy a Gen. lll. The guy from Indy told me I was losing 75 Hp running efi, I know a few places that has told guys 4-5 months and they’ve had their engines for over a year. I could keep going on and on. I’m almost this close on pulling the trigger on a hellcat.

 

[PRHeads]

No one else can make the decision for you as to which is the right choice in that regard(old school vs new school).

Good luck with your choice, whichever way you decide.

 

[70ChargerRT]

No one else can make the decision for you as to which is the right choice in that regard(old school vs new school).

Good luck with your choice, whichever way you decide.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

 

[Houle #382]

Thanks for sharing this. Very helpful info for my 440 build.
Avoid Morel hydraulic lifters and Comp cam
View attachment 1843849

I have Morel hydraulic lifters in my 440 and I'm on my 3rd year with no problems at all. I pull the valve covers every spring and check things over. I run nothing but 5W30 or 10W30 oil. Morel recommends nothing heavier than 10W30 oil and 99% of the time I run Valvoline 10W30 VR1 oil even though it doesn't need the extra Zinc, it doesn't hurt.

 

[Houle #382]

Just cruising home last night and the engine started to ticking. What’s funny is before this happened I had just talked to the guys from Indy and Keith Black about building a 572 and they both said throw the hydraulic rollers away after I talked about using some of my top end.

I have Morel hydraulic lifters in my 440 and I'm on my 3rd year with no problems at all. I pull the valve covers every spring and check things over. I run nothing but 5W30 or 10W30 oil. Morel recommends nothing heavier than 10W30 oil and 99% of the time I run Valvoline 10W30 VR1 oil even though it doesn't need the extra Zinc, it doesn't hurt. I'm also running 440 source aluminum heads with a Competiton Components Hydraulic cam. Knock on wood 3 years without an issue.

 

[70ChargerRT]

I have Morel hydraulic lifters in my 440 and I'm on my 3rd year with no problems at all. I pull the valve covers every spring and check things over. I run nothing but 5W30 or 10W30 oil. Morel recommends nothing heavier than 10W30 oil and 99% of the time I run Valvoline 10W30 VR1 oil even though it doesn't need the extra Zinc, it doesn't hurt. I'm also running 440 source aluminum heads with a Competiton Components Hydraulic cam. Knock on wood 3 years without an issue.

I only run the best. 10w40 Driven. 2000 miles on the engine

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I only run the best. 10w40 Driven. 2000 miles on the engine

When were these parts bought? I have read about a lot of problems from parts bought in 2020-2021. Many unexplained failures during that period across many industries. Link bars should not break, nor have much load across them. I would look hard as to figure out why? Closely examine all your lifters and lifters bores. Are the lifter bores worn in the block? What did you have for a cam button and front cover? Bushing the lifter bores could fix some situations.
WydendorfMachine.com - Wydendorf Machine
Morel manufactures two different lifter bodies and they have 4 styles. One says max 5w-30. The other 2 manufactures(that I know of) are Gatorman and Johnson. Gatorman replicated the crane hydraulic hr lifters that were liked. Isky has there hvx gold lifters and are impressive. I hope the will make them for mopars but as of yet..I don't see them offered. I think isky holds the patent and Johnson makes them. Comp cams has their evolution lifter.

We do have some hydraulic roller lifter engines, but we have hybrid solid roller lifters in several of our cars. Which is a Hr cam which a solid lifter. They are lashed to zero. There are many more options for lifters. You can select cam profiles for hybrids that work very well.

 

[70ChargerRT]

When were these parts bought? I have read about a lot of problems from parts bought in 2020-2021. Many unexplained failures during that period across many industries. Link bars should not break, nor have much load across them. I would look hard as to figure out why? Closely examine all your lifters and lifters bores. Are the lifter bores worn in the block? What did you have for a cam button and front cover? Bushing the lifter bores could fix some situations.
WydendorfMachine.com - Wydendorf Machine
Morel manufactures two different lifter bodies and they have 4 styles. One says max 5w-30. The other 2 manufactures(that I know of) are Gatorman and Johnson. Gatorman replicated the crane hydraulic hr lifters that were liked. Isky has there hvx gold lifters and are impressive. I hope the will make them for mopars but as of yet..I don't see them offered. I think isky holds the patent and Johnson makes them.
We do have some hydraulic roller lifter engines, but we have hybrid solid roller lifters in several of our cars. Which is a Hr cam which a solid lifter. They are lashed to zero. There are many more options for lifters. You can select cam profiles for hybrids that work very well.

2017

 

[Curiousyellow71]

2017

I obviously have not heard of a quality issue that era w morels. It's hard to rule it out...but I think that just says to do whatever possible...If its possible?.. to figure out why this happened. It may be a best guess. Areas I would look:

...Lifter bore wear.
...Examine where the oil band of the lifter is while going up and down in the lifter bore with the current cam and obvious differences between the 2 that failed.
...Cam movement fore/aft
...Binding in the link bars
...Cam grind itself..is there unusual wear happening on any of the base circles? We have seen some unusual wear right after the valve it shut on some comp cam grinds.


Maybe others have thoughts of the best way to try to examine the carnage? Either way I feel your pain. It's difficult to help via internet.

 

[King Kong]

I have Morel hydraulic lifters in my 440 and I'm on my 3rd year with no problems at all. I pull the valve covers every spring and check things over. I run nothing but 5W30 or 10W30 oil. Morel recommends nothing heavier than 10W30 oil and 99% of the time I run Valvoline 10W30 VR1 oil even though it doesn't need the extra Zinc, it doesn't hurt. I'm also running 440 source aluminum heads with a Competiton Components Hydraulic cam. Knock on wood 3 years without an issue.

I have TF top end with TF HR cam and Howards lifters 91767 on a new 440 build. I recently had multiple emails back and forth with a tech person at Howards.
He said those Howards / Morel lifter must be at 380lbs open no more no less (design limit for that lifter). That is what they can take and the oil should be 5/30 10/30. they like a thinner oil.
My 270 TF heads had the 427lb/in dual spring which as too much at open with the 1.6 HS rockers. I am now installing PAC 1220. This give me the required open and closed numbers with some shims for the combination and also most halved the weight on spring, retainer and locks. That means a lighter dynamic load on important valve side of the rocker
The Howard tech person also gave me a 2 page start up procedure for HR cams.

My question / suggestions are to the OP is
Are those the right springs for the cam and HR lifters?
I would run the recommended oil if the clearance on the mains and big ends bearings will allow it.

From the pics it looks like at least one of the shoulders of the lifter are on the lobe. Meaning the lifter has sunk way deeper in the lifter bore and then causing a cascading effect of hitting travel limits on the tie bars. You still have good lifters and lobes so its a easy check on the theory.

I have put a lot effort into my build and asked a lot of questions to more knowledgeable people that me. It would seam that HR cams are less tolerant to poorly matched parts systems than say SR cams. Will be getting the engine on the dyno shortly and seeing if can get the min 6500 rpm peak that I want, If it noses over before 6500 then starting again with SR cam and shooting for 7000rpm min peak. (not retreating here LOL)

 

[70ChargerRT]

I have TF top end with TF HR cam and Howards lifters 91767 on a new 440 build. I recently had multiple emails back and forth with a tech person at Howards.
He said those Howards / Morel lifter must be at 380lbs open no more no less (design limit for that lifter). That is what they can take and the oil should be 5/30 10/30. they like a thinner oil.
My 270 TF heads had the 427lb/in dual spring which as too much at open with the 1.6 HS rockers. I am now installing PAC 1220. This give me the required open and closed numbers with some shims for the combination and also most halved the weight on spring, retainer and locks. That means a lighter dynamic load on important valve side of the rocker
The Howard tech person also gave me a 2 page start up procedure for HR cams.

My question / suggestions are to the OP is
Are those the right springs for the cam and HR lifters?
I would run the recommended oil if the clearance on the mains and big ends bearings will allow it.

From the pics it looks like at least one of the shoulders of the lifter are on the lobe. Meaning the lifter has sunk way deeper in the lifter bore and then causing a cascading effect of hitting travel limits on the tie bars. You still have good lifters and lobes so its a easy check on the theory.

I have put a lot effort into my build and asked a lot of questions to more knowledgeable people that me. It would seam that HR cams are less tolerant to poorly matched parts systems than say SR cams. Will be getting the engine on the dyno shortly and seeing if can get the min 6500 rpm peak that I want, If it noses over before 6500 then starting again with SR cam and shooting for 7000rpm min peak. (not retreating here LOL)

My motors trash anyway. TF 240 with the heavier springs and 1.6 Mancinis. Rollers. Im about done calling engine builders.

 

[zyzzyx]

Thanks for everyone chiming in on these roller cam/lifter issues. I used to race in my past life and we ran
a roller back in 1978 in a BB Chebbie with no problems. I put a Hyd. flat tappet in my engine because I'm
not racing it. Don't think I'd want to spend the money on all of the peripheral parts associated with a roller.
Not needing a roller for 0.700 lift is probably a big reason. I feel for all of you that have bad luck with rollers
and scatter the shrapnel throughout your engines!

 

[terrywalker]

Interesting what you found. Maybe I missed it but what did you find in the oil filter? Alot of metal filings or not much since you didn't drive it far when you heard the noise? Just curious. I also feel your pain about finding a reliable engine rebuilder locally. I've always rebuilt my own engines after having a shop do all the machine work and pressing in the cam bearings. The one time I decided to let someone else rebuild the engine for me, they didn't get the cam bearings installed correctly. No oil to rockers. They covered the cost of repair but not the pulling and installing the engine. I recently bought a rebuilt small block 360 from a friend when he lost his job. He had bought it from a friend's widow after the guy suddenly passed away. It has aluminum heads, intake etc. It's never been run. I'm planning on installing it in my 72 Challenger, but now I think I need to pull the pan and intake to check out the rebuild as I'm not familiar with the rebuilder. This has been an interesting read. Thank you.
Terry W.

 

[70ChargerRT]

Interesting what you found. Maybe I missed it but what did you find in the oil filter? Alot of metal filings or not much since you didn't drive it far when you heard the noise? Just curious.
Terry W.

I havent tore it apart yet and may not. Aint going to lie it sounded like a header gasket went when it 1st started. 5 minutes went by and then it back fired. After that took me 5 more minutes to get home.

 

[70ChargerRT]

I have TF top end with TF HR cam and Howards lifters 91767 on a new 440 build. I recently had multiple emails back and forth with a tech person at Howards.
He said those Howards / Morel lifter must be at 380lbs open no more no less (design limit for that lifter). That is what they can take and the oil should be 5/30 10/30. they like a thinner oil.
My 270 TF heads had the 427lb/in dual spring which as too much at open with the 1.6 HS rockers. I am now installing PAC 1220. This give me the required open and closed numbers with some shims for the combination and also most halved the weight on spring, retainer and locks. That means a lighter dynamic load on important valve side of the rocker
The Howard tech person also gave me a 2 page start up procedure for HR cams.

My question / suggestions are to the OP is
Are those the right springs for the cam and HR lifters?
I would run the recommended oil if the clearance on the mains and big ends bearings will allow it.

From the pics it looks like at least one of the shoulders of the lifter are on the lobe. Meaning the lifter has sunk way deeper in the lifter bore and then causing a cascading effect of hitting travel limits on the tie bars. You still have good lifters and lobes so its a easy check on the theory.

I have put a lot effort into my build and asked a lot of questions to more knowledgeable people that me. It would seam that HR cams are less tolerant to poorly matched parts systems than say SR cams. Will be getting the engine on the dyno shortly and seeing if can get the min 6500 rpm peak that I want, If it noses over before 6500 then starting again with SR cam and shooting for 7000rpm min peak. (not retreating here LOL)

I went back through my post and re read everyone’s comments and this one struck me. What would cause the lifer being so far in the lifter bore?