1970 Super Bee: Thoughts on this car for sale? And intro from Minnesota.

[DynaBro]

Weren’t track pack cars supposed to have rallye gauges?

 

[velocityss1985]

All Super Bee's had the rallye dash.

 

[dadsbee]

It's an R/T not a Bee. Regular dash.

As for the "survivor" with just a repaint... no. I can't even call my 10,000 mile '66 Hemi Satellite a survivor as the dumb **** before me repainted it. At least he didn't Paint the engine compartment and the hood spring and release lever!

 

[Geetex]

As for the "survivor" with just a repaint... no.

Plus, the "not original drive train".

 

[DynaBro]

There was a really nice Bee that went on eBay recently for around 70k that was a true original paint survivor. Weird gold and black interior. Had a sort of old man sedan look but all the MOPAR performance stuff.

 

[Thrashingcows]

Yeah you can't call it a survivor with a full repaint and non-original drive train...unless he could document the motor was a warranty motor back in the 70's. I'd like to see that price in the $55K area.

 

[DynaBro]

Anyway let's move on from the whole survivor thing. Thoughts?

 

[EWJ]

This beauty just came up. Asking 65k. Not original drive train but basically a survivor with one repaint. Owner is actually forthcoming and communicative this time as well. Thoughts?

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It is a very cool car: just some things that at the asking price point I'd not want to see in a restoration. Things like painted hood latch mechanism, hood spring, wrong master cylinder (821 is the correct one and a core is $500-800). With just these things from a distant picture of the engine bay make me wonder what else there is, like how well were the quarter skins installed? Were they fitted with care (trimmed, butt welded, etc) or were they just laid over the old quarters and welded to the car here and there. The care, or lack of, in installing these make a big value difference. If they were done with care, then it will likely suffice. If not, it could be an issue to be dealt with in 5 years.

On the other hand, it is one of 405 made: these cars are few and far between compared to their Plymouth counterpart.

.02

 

[DynaBro]

It is a very cool car: just some things that at the asking price point I'd not want to see in a restoration. Things like painted hood latch mechanism, hood spring, wrong master cylinder (821 is the correct one and a core is $500-800). With just these things from a distant picture of the engine bay make me wonder what else there is, like how well were the quarter skins installed? Were they fitted with care (trimmed, butt welded, etc) or were they just laid over the old quarters and welded to the car here and there. The care, or lack of, in installing these make a big value difference. If they were done with care, then it will likely suffice. If not, it could be an issue to be dealt with in 5 years.

On the other hand, it is one of 405 made: these cars are few and far between compared to their Plymouth counterpart.

.02

Love these sort of posts. All this knowledge is so cool. I spent all day trying to decode that fender tag and could only figure out about half of it.

 

[EWJ]

There was a really nice Bee that went on eBay recently for around 70k that was a true original paint survivor. Weird gold and black interior. Had a sort of old man sedan look but all the MOPAR performance stuff.

That was an excellent car.

 

[DynaBro]

That was an excellent car.

For sure. I knew if I got my hands on it I couldn't live without repainting it black with gold C-stripes to accent that interior, which would have been a sin considering the original condition.

 

[Outsider]

I'd say the green one looks like it's worth a test drive. In addition to the body inspection discussed earlier, ideally I would recommend you test drive at least half a dozen cars before you buy. Honestly, I don't regret flying out, and a few long drives to look at the cars I didn't buy; saved a bunch of ownership disappointment.
These aren't 4 year old used cars, they're over 50 years old and likely been through a lot of stuff. I test drove, or tried, two cars out of the bunch I looked at, that had a lot of money in them and good pics, that basically didn't run and had numerous functional/assembly problems.

I ended buying the one that ran the best, idled normally, ok power, 4 spd shifted properly, didn't have many rattles or body roll, even though it had some other shortcomings.

 

[68BabyBlue]

It is a very cool car: just some things that at the asking price point I'd not want to see in a restoration. Things like painted hood latch mechanism, hood spring, wrong master cylinder (821 is the correct one and a core is $500-800). With just these things from a distant picture of the engine bay make me wonder what else there is, like how well were the quarter skins installed? Were they fitted with care (trimmed, butt welded, etc) or were they just laid over the old quarters and welded to the car here and there. The care, or lack of, in installing these make a big value difference. If they were done with care, then it will likely suffice. If not, it could be an issue to be dealt with in 5 years.

On the other hand, it is one of 405 made: these cars are few and far between compared to their Plymouth counterpart.

.02

These are valid points. When I started looking at GTX number five in 2015, I was initially turned off by the engine compartment pictures, with paint in the wrong places - hood latch mechanism, master cylinder backing plate, inner fender access plates. And a whole lot of incorrect stuff - master cylinder, plug wires, coil. What redeemed the car, was excellent body work on a decent original platform, and the installation of many excellent oem trim pieces. The car had been mechanically restored years earlier, the cosmetic work was done as a group charity project, and proceeds from the sale were donated. I flew from PA to Iowa to inspect it, and bought it on the spot after a test drive, drove it on a regular basis for five years, with no issues. I spent a few thousand cleaning up the detail items, no surprises.

Six months earlier, I had inspected another GTX in Indiana, and returned home after having a reasonable offer rejected. Car sold for less than my offer a few months later. My current GTX also had the paint on the hood spring, and incorrect paint on the underside, but everything on the body, including the sheet metal is NOS. No regrets on that one either. Great, poor, or in between, the personal inspection is well worth the time.

 

[DynaBro]

I would love to have the ability to go look at every promising car I see listed, but the problem for younger guys (I'm in my mid 40s) who never got much if any up close experience with these cars is that won't necessarily solve anything and will cost a ton of money in travel. Have to remember everything, and I mean everything, costs a fortune now. The days of making a trip across three states for $100 in gas and maybe a $60 hotel are long gone. And that would be close. Haven't seen anything good I could reach in an afternoon trip. Plus, there's a load of stuff I wouldn't know to look for, and even if I did how to know what might be an issue. I remember my first Triumph motorcycle. I had no idea if it was supposed to sound the way it did or not. No one I knew ever had one to compare. The hope now is you find communities like this with guys that have knowledge and are generous with their time, and find a car from a seller who has a good reputation among other enthusiasts. I would never have caught that master cylinder stuff, and the hood latch paint would not have even concerned me really. I don't rip people off and always take the time to list every single thing I know about a vehicle I am selling, but more and more I feel like I'm in the minority. I spent a few thousand fixing up a car I don't care about anymore this summer just so I knew I wasn't going to end up selling someone a raw deal. Luckily with the internet and some due diligence we can take a lot of the guess work out of the process like this thread did with the initial car. I don't know how this culture is going to survive at all once the guys who grew up in the muscle car era are gone because I sure don't like trying to deal or communicate with the guys my age that are selling them. Let's say I took the info we've got so far on this green R/T back to the seller and said, "Hey nice car but there are too many unknowns. That paint isn't right and it calls into question the patches, etc. I don't want to offend you but my offer is 50k." He'd tell me to get bent and put it on Bring a Trailer or ebay. So that's what I'm up against because with those photos it likely would fetch what he's asking whether it's worth it or not. It's a rough endeavor buying a classic MOPAR in 2023. And I think the behavior we see with these cars being flipped so frequently reflects that. Someone sees nice photos and buys it, thing's aren't quite right, they resell it for a bit more to cover their shipping losses, the cycle continues. Either you're the sucker that buys it, or the sucker that misses the good deal cause you're hesitant. I'm just going to keep posting stuff I find that passes my guard and hope you guys talk me out of them until one shows up that you don't.

 

[68BabyBlue]

I would love to have the ability to go look at every promising car I see listed, but the problem for younger guys (I'm in my mid 40s) who never got much if any up close experience with these cars is that won't necessarily solve anything and will cost a ton of money in travel. Have to remember everything, and I mean everything, costs a fortune now. The days of making a trip across three states for $100 in gas and maybe a $60 hotel are long gone. And that would be close. Haven't seen anything good I could reach in an afternoon trip. Plus, there's a load of stuff I wouldn't know to look for, and even if I did how to know what might be an issue. I remember my first Triumph motorcycle. I had no idea if it was supposed to sound the way it did or not. No one I knew ever had one to compare. The hope now is you find communities like this with guys that have knowledge and are generous with their time, and find a car from a seller who has a good reputation among other enthusiasts. I would never have caught that master cylinder stuff, and the hood latch paint would not have even concerned me really. I don't rip people off and always take the time to list every single thing I know about a vehicle I am selling, but more and more I feel like I'm in the minority. I spent a few thousand fixing up a car I don't care about anymore this summer just so I knew I wasn't going to end up selling someone a raw deal. Luckily with the internet and some due diligence we can take a lot of the guess work out of the process like this thread did with the initial car. I don't know how this culture is going to survive at all once the guys who grew up in the muscle car era are gone because I sure don't like trying to deal or communicate with the guys my age that are selling them. Let's say I took the info we've got so far on this green R/T back to the seller and said, "Hey nice car but there are too many unknowns. That paint isn't right and it calls into question the patches, etc. I don't want to offend you but my offer is 50k." He'd tell me to get bent and put it on Bring a Trailer or ebay. So that's what I'm up against because with those photos it likely would fetch what he's asking whether it's worth it or not. It's a rough endeavor buying a classic MOPAR in 2023. And I think the behavior we see with these cars being flipped so frequently reflects that. Someone sees nice photos and buys it, thing's aren't quite right, they resell it for a bit more to cover their shipping losses, the cycle continues. Either you're the sucker that buys it, or the sucker that misses the good deal cause you're hesitant. I'm just going to keep posting stuff I find that passes my guard and hope you guys talk me out of them until one shows up that you don't.

I am the generation before you, who grew up with these things, before they became valuable. You are right, it makes the process easier. When I bought number five, I told the seller, I've had four GTXs, know how they deteriorate, know how they get preserved - you have a good car, let's make a deal. One measurable item that may help you working from a distance - ownership history. All the vintage Mopars I've owned have had significant, documented proof of being in the hands of a least one owner for a significant period of time, and not much movement among buyers over the years. Current GTX was in hands of last guy for 28 years, my former Hemi car had one owner for 31 years, my third GTX was one owner for 22 years, fourth was one owner for 30 years, and fifth had one owner for 28 years.

Cars with this degree of history are scarce, but if you can document it, the odds tilt in your favor.

 

[DynaBro]

I am the generation before you, who grew up with these things, before they became valuable. You are right, it makes the process easier. When I bought number five, I told the seller, I've had four GTXs, know how they deteriorate, know how they get preserved - you have a good car, let's make a deal. One measurable item that may help you working from a distance - ownership history. All the vintage Mopars I've owned have had significant, documented proof of being in the hands of a least one owner for a significant period of time, and not much movement among buyers over the years. Current GTX was in hands of last guy for 28 years, my former Hemi car had one owner for 31 years, my third GTX was one owner for 22 years, fourth was one owner for 30 years, and fifth had one owner for 28 years.

Cars with this degree of history are scarce, but if you can document it, the odds tilt in your favor.

Oh absolutely. I always ask for this stuff but rarely do I get any of it. "It came this way. It drives good." is usually about as far as it goes. I think the internet has had a detrimental effect on car selling as well. Sellers get a million messages which could be filtered down ahead of time if they wrote out a comprehensive ad answering all the usual questions, but they choose not to. Why? Well the suspicions then becomes they deliberately withhold info because they're fishing for the buyer who doesn't know what to ask. The sucker. I'm hoping eventually something shows up that people here recognize, know the guy, have hard recommendations in favor of. Where I live you NEVER see these cars. I went to the big MOPAR show this summer and as expected it was mostly Road Runners and a few choice Chargers and Cudas, but there were only 2 1970 Super Bees in an entire fairground lot.

 

[68BabyBlue]

Every private seller GTX (seven total) that I've inspected, I've purchased. You nailed it on asking the questions, and not getting the answers. At that point, you move on. When I got the answers I was looking for, I did the inspection, and closed the deal, with a car I was happy with long after the sale. You are on the right track. But it's like trophy fishing, you won't get a lot of hits while you're on the hunt. I never responded to an ad that didn't get the important stuff out in front. I agree the internet makes the process worse. The old print ads in Hemmings required more real information.

On the opposite side, when I've been a seller, I've been frustrated by the number of people who don't care about information I consider important, but want 45 pictures sent to them before further discussion. The dealers play to this, with 70 pictures of a mediocre car, and a premium price.

 

[eldubb440]

I'm sorry....... but to sand blast rust and paint over the pits with no effort put forth to fill them is just...... sad

 

[DynaBro]

First photo is how it was found before this repaint. The rest are current.

 

[Thrashingcows]

For 65K I'd be looking for a higher level of detail than what I'm seeing in those pics. Over spary, mufflers/exhaust pieced in and old gungy aluminized pipes, and something about that trunk floor doesn't look right to me?