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1974 Charger 1 of ?

Just about the likelihood of s/r being in a 440 car.

Probably way more likely in an SE.
 
440 in a B-Body in 1974? . . . mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I know you could still get one in a New Yorker in '74 - could this be some special internal order car?
 
As far as I know he does not have any "1 of 1" records (see what I did there... lol). He collected a large quantity of data mainly from dealers going out of business and I suppose some that were still in business as well as documenting cars everywhere he could. He does not have any "holy grail" documents that no one else has, rather he has managed to organized a large amount of data to develop his "data base" from which he makes his assertions about a specific car. He started off authenticating cars as being what the owner said they were (real RT, real 440 4spd, etc.) but then as investors started to get very interested in the cars he began to elevate his service by providing the "1 of X" statements always followed by "known to exist" (this is because he got into trouble early on stating that something was 1 of X and was proven wrong).

His service along with others are merely guess work post the actual number of that model/year were made. Chrysler did not keep records on how many yellow, 440 4spd, black interior am/fm 8 track, stripe delete, with road wheels 71 Chargers were built (this is just a made up example). They did however note what percentages of cars were built of a specific year in a specific color, meaning (again made up) that if 3% of the 1971 Dodges were yellow, you could determine what percentage of the entire line were chargers or even charger RTs and then extrapolate how many "could" have been yellow. This is the same with any/all options (which is why so many people get upset when someone wants to get fender tag made).
In other words, everything he and pretty much everyone else does is complete guesswork, however there is no way to refute him or anyone else. Pretty much all of the data is available that is out there and anyone could do the same math and arrive at the same or a similar answer, however he (and others) have made a name for doing this ... I would not put any faith in anything GG said nor would I pay him a dime, but thats just me.
Bingo.
 
440 in a B-Body in 1974? . . . mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I know you could still get one in a New Yorker in '74 - could this be some special internal order car?
Nope. 440 was available in a b-body in 1974. The "Rallye" name replaced the R/T, and the RR became a "GTX" with the 440 engine.
 
440s in late 70s b body monacos.
 
440 in a B-Body in 1974? . . . mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. I know you could still get one in a New Yorker in '74 - could this be some special internal order car?

fender tag.jpg


Look for yourself...
 
4D B body cop cars until 1978.
 
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I've seen a black SE, 440, sunroof car new in my home town. Also I remember a lot of the 74 SE's were black and I personally have seen several 440 versions. I think there would be quite a few more than 1 produced.
 
You could extrapolate a certain percentage will be black.

There is that belief you can push numbers around and arrive at a different number, but, no you can't.

Think of a Venn diagram. There is no way to be able to determine where on the axis the center of each circle falls and where they overlap to get you to the number you are trying to find. Here's an example of trying to combine three options.

Three_Options_Diagram.jpg
 
As far as I know he does not have any "1 of 1" records (see what I did there... lol). He collected a large quantity of data mainly from dealers going out of business and I suppose some that were still in business as well as documenting cars everywhere he could. He does not have any "holy grail" documents that no one else has, rather he has managed to organized a large amount of data to develop his "data base" from which he makes his assertions about a specific car. He started off authenticating cars as being what the owner said they were (real RT, real 440 4spd, etc.) but then as investors started to get very interested in the cars he began to elevate his service by providing the "1 of X" statements always followed by "known to exist" (this is because he got into trouble early on stating that something was 1 of X and was proven wrong).

His service along with others are merely guess work post the actual number of that model/year were made. Chrysler did not keep records on how many yellow, 440 4spd, black interior am/fm 8 track, stripe delete, with road wheels 71 Chargers were built (this is just a made up example). They did however note what percentages of cars were built of a specific year in a specific color, meaning (again made up) that if 3% of the 1971 Dodges were yellow, you could determine what percentage of the entire line were chargers or even charger RTs and then extrapolate how many "could" have been yellow. This is the same with any/all options (which is why so many people get upset when someone wants to get fender tag made).

In other words, everything he and pretty much everyone else does is complete guesswork, however there is no way to refute him or anyone else. Pretty much all of the data is available that is out there and anyone could do the same math and arrive at the same or a similar answer, however he (and others) have made a name for doing this which has been accepted as being valid by many, thus of value to have his letter.

The "fire" thing is a bit of an urban legend and widely cited as the reason we do not have the detailed records that other car manufacturers have. However there are a number other "rumors" as well, one is that the records were simply thrown away to make space or to empty a building. Another is that the records (some or all) were actually taken and are in fact being held by someone (I've been told in Canada) but that they won't release anything fearing a huge legal retaliation by Chrysler.

Then the last one (rumor) is that Chrysler does in fact have the data but will not release it because they fear the backlash from the hobby not to mention potential legal issues from investors/collector's who paid a lot of money for a vehicle only to find out it is not correct. Now this "rumor" IMO has some teeth because back around 2013 I attended SEMA and while there I visited the Mopar booth. I got to talking to young guy (late 20's early 30's) who worked for Chrysler at the booth. After a little while he said he wanted to show me something and went into their meeting room area, when he came out he was holding a large brown binder. He handed me the binder and explained that this was a project he was working on and the concept was that someone could send them a VIN and pay a fee and they would build this binder with information about that model and specific car to include exactly how that car left the plant. I was in shock and asked him if Chrysler had the records for all of these cars and he responded with "oh yeah its all on microfiche and stored in one of our buildings in MI". I asked him this same question at least 3 times in slightly different ways to include whether or not he had personally seen these records all of which I got the same answer to.

By the 3rd question he was looking at me weirdly like "why do you keep asking me this" and I then asked him if he understood the significance of his statement? He responded that didn't really but was beginning to think it was a big deal and I told him it was a huge deal. He asked me if I thought people would pay for that service to which I responded "more than you can imagine both in price and volume". Finally after about an hour someone older came out and pulled to the side, when he came back his began to try and back pedal saying that he wasn't sure what they had. He exchanged phone numbers with a friend of mine who had a Mopar restoration business but my friend said they never communicated because the Mopar employee would never respond to calls or texts.

So, believe what you wish but the bottom line is that GG and others are still making money off the hobby to one degree or another but I as I originally stated I would not put any faith in anything GG said nor would I pay him a dime, but thats just me.

Some of the info (the 'White Books" and individual Options and Accessories reports) he's published is derived from the factory sales (SG) reports. They are 'out there' in various forms. He just happened to hit on the formula for distilling, clarifying and monetizing them; to a point. Once his published data populated the WWW, the value dropped except for the portability of the written 'pocket book'. The two books on engineering and casting info is still a fantastic resource.

You can debate or like or hate what the guy has become over time, but his early work in publishing the data made available in portable reader friendly format has been invaluable to the hobby and is still a relatively comprehensive source of info.
 
I agree that GG has done a lot of good for the hobby early on, but he drank his own Kool-Aid and became full of himself. He became a prick to the hobby that made him which is one of the reasons so many cannot stand him today. Additionally he refused to accept responsibility for making some pretty monumental mistakes that cost some people some significant amounts of money.
 
I've seen a black SE, 440, sunroof car new in my home town. Also I remember a lot of the 74 SE's were black and I personally have seen several 440 versions. I think there would be quite a few more than 1 produced.

I was joking when I was saying this - I was following the GG model "1 of 1 known to exist". It's the only one I've ever seen so it's the rarest of the rare!!!

I also get that it's a 1974 Charger - it's kinda pimpy and funky but still has great lines.
 
Ha, ha: No I got what you're saying. It is a great car for sure. By 74 the rallye was still overshadowed by the 71 cars IMO. The SE was way more popular probably because it was a more honest luxury highway burner more than trying to be strictly a musclecar that couldn't keep up with the 71 cars. My first car in 1974 was a 73, 400 SE. Great cars for their era.

IMG_20191211_0008.jpg
 
When Galen does up a report on your car, he reports it as 1 of X that he has in his personal database. That is where the 1 of 4 sunroof 440 Rallye Charger number likely comes from - he has 4 such cars in his database. I have 5 such cars in my database - 2 Red and 3 Yellow - but I do not have fender tag data from one of the Red and one of the Yellow ones. As for the original posters WP29 model - I have run across 8 sunroof 440 SE's - but again - I only have fender tag data for half of them. And yes, the likelihood of there being more 1974 WP29 440 sunroof cars than 440 sunroof Rallye cars is pretty high. The 1973 sunroof SE's (all engine types) outnumber the 1973 sunroof Rallyes (all engine types) by a factor of 5 to 1.
 
When Galen does up a report on your car, he reports it as 1 of X that he has in his personal database. That is where the 1 of 4 sunroof 440 Rallye Charger number likely comes from - he has 4 such cars in his database. I have 5 such cars in my database - 2 Red and 3 Yellow - but I do not have fender tag data from one of the Red and one of the Yellow ones. As for the original posters WP29 model - I have run across 8 sunroof 440 SE's - but again - I only have fender tag data for half of them. And yes, the likelihood of there being more 1974 WP29 440 sunroof cars than 440 sunroof Rallye cars is pretty high. The 1973 sunroof SE's (all engine types) outnumber the 1973 sunroof Rallyes (all engine types) by a factor of 5 to 1.

Thank you for the information! I always used to look down on the gen 3 Chargers, but after having owned one for a bit it 's very distinctive and this one is got some neat options on it. I rarely see them at shows or get togethers. I'm glad someone else is doing similar work to GG and glad to see you are on the board.
 
Thank you for the information! I always used to look down on the gen 3 Chargers, but after having owned one for a bit it 's very distinctive and this one is got some neat options on it. I rarely see them at shows or get togethers. I'm glad someone else is doing similar work to GG and glad to see you are on the board.
RB - I run the Mopar Sunroof Registry website, and do some 71-74 Plymouth B-Body registry stuff too. I would love to see some pictures of your car for the sunroof registry, and possibly an unedited pic of your fender tag. If you are game, you can email me at the registry email on the Contact page of the site. Thanks! www.moparsunroofregistry.com
 
If you can find it, Ward's Automotive Yearbook has option production information.
 
I wonder where they got that info, if it doesn't exist from the factory?
 
I wonder where they got that info, if it doesn't exist from the factory?
The records that got purged from the factory, I believe, were just hardcopies of individual cars. The SG-30 Options & Accessories reports were something completely different. A full report was printed off at the end of the production year to give the product planners an idea of what options were popular, and what options were not popular. These reports didn't show actual numbers, they showed installation rates (percentages). And these percentages were rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent. So when you take this rounded percentage figure and multiply it times the actual production figures for a certain model of car, you get an estimate of how many cars came with said option. If you are really interested in the details, I have a write up (SG-30 Tutorial) posted to my Mopar Sunroof Registry site that goes through this production number stuff: https://moparsunroofregistry.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/sg30_explaination2.pdf
 
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