400 stroker - best displacement and advice

[BostonElfjr]

Hi Guys and ...just in case...Gals !?

My all original 68 RR 383 4 spd car - manual everything... shows signs of the engine being a little tired... so I think I will pull the engine, put it on a stand, and go buy a 400 based stroker and then rebuild the 4 spd with overdrive kit like passon offers. I do not know what the gears on my rear end are... supposedly 3.55 but on the highway at 70mph with my skinny 215/R75/14 tires the rpm guage showed 3650 rpm.... wouldn't that mean 3.91 ? May have had rear internals swapped I guess? The car is in my friends garage in NH while I live way over here in Norway.. just 300 clicks south of the arctic circle.

So back to my question : Would you have any particular recommendation for an engine builder that offers say a 451/470/498/499 stroker and what kind of engine displacement offers better overall reliability ? A shorter stroke offers more high end rpm ? A longer stroke will that be detrimental to overall ability to achieve high rpm ? I have no idea.... I did see a 69 Charger Daytona pro touring clone on youtube with a 451 and the driver explained the 451 as optimal for overall internal balance and reliability, he said something about optimum geometry...for longer engine life and taking sustained punishment, that 69 had a 5spd i think and was completely capable of sustained 180mph, not what i need... but cool nonetheless.

Oh my application would involve just FUN driving, and I need an overdrive for reducing rpm on the highway (I like to go up to 90)
But every now and then I would like to smoke up the tires, after all, a mopar is for driving !

I do think I want a stock looking one since the 400 easily looks just like 383 externally, I would even want the 383 road runner pie tin on the top and nothing building above the stock hood height....sleeper appearance but I would get thicker/bigger tires for more hold..OH...for that reason tips on tires are ok too..I was thinking 15" 225/70/15 (Cooper has T rated tires )...... since no one makes decent 16" rims, I think 17" would be too much and really hard to handle with manual steering...


Any tips would be appreciated... thanks and have a great mopar day !

-Erik

 

[IQ52]

This is like asking, "What is the best perfume for my girlfriend?"

Everyone has a different answer. Most people will answer with the displacement they are running and very few will have run more than one. I've run the 451 strokers to 7600 rpm and the 500 strokers to 7400 rpm. None of them are rpm challenged with the right camshaft, cylinder heads, exhaust and intake.

And everyone of those displacements will work great.

Which one do you like the sound of?

 

[Garys1969RR]

My 451 runs great and been running the 1/4 mile at 5600 feet for 3 years now. With 13 to1 C/R and a 509 cam with 915 ported heads, it has ran a best of 12.33 @ 110 MPH. Last week made 6 passes, all in the 12.40 range. Sometimes it pops and misses during burnouts at higher RPMs, probably due to valve float. When built well the 451 is a durable and strong running engine, I wouldn't hesitate to build another one.

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The nice thing about the 451 is you can use all stock parts. Just turn down the 440 crankshaft to 400 main journal size. No need to buy a special stroker crank unless you just want the cubic inches. Remember larger size is going to want a better flowing cyl head.

 

[Cranky]

Imo, there's really no 'best' displacement but I think they have their places. I like short stroke engines in lighter cars with longer stroke engines in heavier ones. Back when small blocks seemed to rule, I was into big blocks but now I have a tendency to lean towards short stroke big bore engines and try to lighten up the car while a lot of people are building mega cube engines but generally, the bigger the engine, the more expensive it is to build. My favorite build using common parts is the 400 stroker using a 440 crank. You have a large bore engine with a relatively long stroke without breaking the bank and they perform very well while also fitting into a smaller engine bay like an 'A' body. It also gives more room in the larger B and E body cars too since the block is more compact. The 400 block generally offers a more rigid cylinder wall (because it's shorter) and has more meat around the mains vs the RB block but like any block you plan on sinking some money into, it should be sonic tested before boring it.

I've had one 470 stroker based on a 440 block which was using an offset ground 440 crank and was in a Duster running high 9's which weighed 2950 however there are plenty of small blocks running high 9's in similar weight cars. Also have had a hand in helping a buddy with a 400 based 499 stroker with the Indy top end which was in a 3500+ lb Challenger that ran high 9's on motor and low 9's with a small shot of the funny gas. Another buddy was running a 283 in a 56 Chevy sedan running low 11's in SS/O. He launched @ 9500 and shifted at 9! This was back in the 80's so the technology for doing that wasn't as good as it is now.

For the street.....a 383 would be fine if you 'blue print' the engine and make sure ports are matched along with working the heads some but a 400 offers more cubes for the same stroke so that would be my choice along with doing the same type of machine work...

 

[BostonElfjr]

To all of you ,

Mopar folks are the best ! Thanks for the valuable input ! I am impressed IQ 52 that you can run a 451 up to 7600, so do any of you know who sells a sturdy 451 with a forged crank (440) that will do around 7000 rpm all day if I want to take my ride down the Autobahn in germany say at 130mph ? ?

"Cranky" - Thanks ! I'll easily follow your reasoning. Since I have four kids and no time to tinker with mechanicals...although I love hearing you guys talk about it...

Can someone point me in some direction as to who makes engines like this ? What should I expect to pay ? 8-9K ?

Thankfully,

Erik
p.s. : Just to make it clear, I wont be going down the Autobahn @ 130 with my kids in it...

 

[benno440]

IMO taller wheel with smaller tire will turn easier than a smaller wheel and bulgy tire, i would be putting soemthing more like 245-275 on the front and 285-315 on the back if you can get, you want a wide tire if your planninig on doing some high speed, "because more tire is more grip am i right".

why not go a 400-511 stroker kit or 470, just a thought

http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/stroker-category/400-stroker-kit-article.html

 

[Garys1969RR]

I spent about $3,000 to build my 451 bottom end. Crank with machine work $575, Pistons $700, Rings bearings gaskets $300, used 509 cam $75, used 400 engine $300, oil pump and timing chain set $120, clean and machine block $900, comes to 2970. I did the assembly and parts chasing. Saved a little there.

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Prob have another $1000 in the heads, intake and carb. If you can find used parts, that will save you some. Fairly easy to find them here, but that may be hard to do where you are. Good luck!

 

[383man]

There are many good stroker builds from 431 cube .030 over 383 strokers to way over 500 cube 400 and 440's. Myself I used a 440 block because I may want to run a crossram one day and the 440 has a way better selection of crossram intakes then the 400 low block. Up to 600 hp the 440 block works fine. And wanted a lower rpm torque eng to push my 3700 lb 63 into the 10's without working to hard. If you click this link you can go to the bottom of the page to see my latest 440/493 eng build as its right near the bottom of the page. Its just easier if you want to see what I built to compare to what you have in mind or if you may or may not like the build I did as its another build you can compare to others. Good luck in whichever way you decide to go. Ron
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html

 

[rrTor-Red]

Had a 400 stroked to 470. Dynoed at 585 hp/610 ft lbs of torque

 

[451Mopar]

Any of the stroker sizes will work. The old 451 was my first 400 stroker built around 1991, using a turned down 440 crank, stock 440 rods, and custom ROSS pistons from Muscle Motors when Chuck Senator owned it. Now you can get custom forged 4340 steel stroker cranks and rods so cheap, there is not many reasons to not go with a larger stroker engine. My Charger is currently running a 4.15" (499" or 500"), stroker 400 engine, but it is built for high compression and 7,000+ RPM. For a street/torque type engine with lower RPM, the 4.25" stroker (512") looks nice. The cylinder heads are a big factor in the combination. One thing with these larger engines is the rest of the drivetrain and fuel/exhaust systems needs to be able to handle the torque and power.
As for high speed crusing, I have a mild 4.25" stroked 440 in my Coronet with 3.54:1 gears and the SS700 overdrive, so 100 MPH is only around 3,000 RPM in overdrive.

 

[Dennis H]

Well, 440. 415 rwhp chassis. 3:54 Dana. TKO 5 speed. 295 50 15's rear. Loafs at triple digit speeds. Smolders them on demand and stops pulling at 4850. Where I like it - in the basement.

 

[747mopar]

All I'll say is if you have a 440 rotating assembly and a 400 then it's the cheap route which is the only reason I went that route. If I had more money then I would have went even bigger (no replacement for displacement).

 

[HT413]

If all you're going to do is run street tires, save the money and build a nice strong 383. Street tires will allow a 650 ft-lb stroker to lay down less than half of that.

 

[HawkRod]

With the engine you are planning (regardless of final stroke), you will have lots of power. 225/70 tires are puny, and I would highly suggest larger tires.

On two different Road Runners, I have used 275/60R15 in the rear. They are probably one of the most popular sizes for the rear. These are ZERO FUSS tires and do everything you need with absolutely no rub whatsoever (ideally you should have a 8" wide wheel for these). If you start going larger, then you have to be careful about rubbing. 295's have been used by quite a few guys, but these are susceptible to rubbing, so when you start getting into these sizes you really have to be careful, and you may not be able to take a bump while you have a lateral load on the tires (i.e. bump in a turn). I can't personally speak to their fit. Also, my definition of fit and someone else's may be different. My definition of fit means it will work in all conditions without rubbing. Other people's definition of fit is that they work and usually don't rub.

Good Luck.

 

[GrabberOrange69]

I haven't built mine yet, but have collected all but the con rods. I have built another stroker motor, but it's a small block, and this will be my first foray into stroked big block.

I think you should build what you have a wallet for, and the more cubes, the better (for the street). You mentioned overdrive and street RPMs, I'd go 512.

My process has taken me 2.5 years, but I have patiently looked for the good deals and jump on them when I find them. I'll be building a 470ci stroker because I got the best deal on the crank, but would have liked the 512 option if I could have scored a inexpensive crank. The 440 source combo's are now $2,200+ and if you can swing it, look like great deals for street/strip stuff. But I will beat them $$$ wise with my combo and my machinist. So far this is where I am:

3.915 crank = $490
ICON pistons/rings = $425
Used 400 long block = $300
Stealth Heads = $900 (MATS vendor sale)
Six Pack, complete with linkage = $845 (eVILbay score, it's cherry-still has ink stamps on the carbs! You can hate me now

If you have the time and patience, you'll turn up what you need for less $$$. Good luck!

 

[747mopar]

With the engine you are planning (regardless of final stroke), you will have lots of power. 225/70 tires are puny, and I would highly suggest larger tires.

On two different Road Runners, I have used 275/60R15 in the rear. They are probably one of the most popular sizes for the rear. These are ZERO FUSS tires and do everything you need with absolutely no rub whatsoever (ideally you should have a 8" wide wheel for these). If you start going larger, then you have to be careful about rubbing. 295's have been used by quite a few guys, but these are susceptible to rubbing, so when you start getting into these sizes you really have to be careful, and you may not be able to take a bump while you have a lateral load on the tires (i.e. bump in a turn). I can't personally speak to their fit. Also, my definition of fit and someone else's may be different. My definition of fit means it will work in all conditions without rubbing. Other people's definition of fit is that they work and usually don't rub.

Good Luck.

I'm running 285s on my Charger and will be running 295s next time around, you have to get it on really crooked terrain for them to rub and I mean crooked as in what would make most stock vehicles to rub.

 

[HawkRod]

I'm running 285s on my Charger and will be running 295s next time around, you have to get it on really crooked terrain for them to rub and I mean crooked as in what would make most stock vehicles to rub.

True enough. If I remember correctly, you are running 17" (or even larger?) rims on your car. With 15" wheels and 60 series tires there will be more sidewall flex, so I think the likelihood of rubbing increases.

By the way, to the OP, take a look at 747mopar's restoration thread. Personally, I think his wheels look really cool, and that is saying a lot because I usually prefer a wheel with more sidewall on these cars. I would also search the forum and look at other combos on other cars to get a good idea of what you like...

 

[Dennis H]

295 50 15 rear tires on an 8 inch wheel bought mounted from Summit. It only rubs at Willow Springs under extreme conditions. Coronet gets squirrely at about 140 ish mph due to aerodynamics so the Coopers are adequate.They look bitchin but spin on demand as if they were 2 inches wide.

 

[BostonElfjr]

Thank you so much all of you for your input, I am bookmarking this thread for reference. Many many great ideas !

-Erik