440 Rebuild

[MoparHusker]

Quick recap:
1973 Charger SE, has a 69 440. Car has not run for 25 years and I just wanted to get it to a driveable state. Made a little contraption to run the water pump to flush the engine and when I was almost done, noticed a trickle of water coming from under the car. Leaking from the side of the engine behind the motor mount and was 99% sure it was a frost plug. Decided to pull the engine and do a rebuild. Would have been difficult to get old frost plug replaced while in the car and there was no guarantee that nothing else was wrong since it has not run in 25 years. So, out comes the engine.

Having a little problem getting mounted to the engine stand. Was going to mount to the top four holes. The top two holes I could only get the bolts in about 1/2 inch. Looked around for a thread chaser and did not find one, or at least an inexpensive set. Sprayed WD-40 in the holes, used a pick to clean things up and I think it is as good as it is going to get. I can go in 3/4 in one hole and 7/8 in the other top one. Decided I would use the bottom holes instead of the middle set. Once I get it mounted, I will put some support under the oil pan, so I can unhook the engine leveler and then I will remove heads to lighten things up.

I was going to use Easy Off to degrease everything, but wondered if that is too caustic. Thoughts?

As for the current state, the car has an 8 1/4 rear with I think 2.71 open carrier. I have an 8 3/4 with 3.23 Suregrip that I will be putting in. I had put in a 2800 stall converter 28 years ago and absolutely hated how the car drove, just like it had a slipping clutch. I am replacing that with a pretty much stock converter.

The car will be for street only, no taking it to the track. I will have to do some burnouts every once in a while and give her hell between stoplights and show the 4 cylinders what power a big block Mopar has.

So, with that being said, I will want a lot of low end torque, the cam can’t be too radical, since I am running a stock converter. I had an idea in my head of somewhere between 500 and 550 HP. I will want a more flat torque curve and not just a peak. I want it to sound more than stock, so it has a little rumble to it.

I am most likely going to take it to Arnold Motor Supply to have the machine work done. Bake or boil the block, crack check it, hone or bore it, square deck it, align hone and I will ask it they can thread the holes a little deeper. I will have them put in the frost plugs and cam bearings and will have to see what they want to charge to assemble the short block.

The one guy I talked to seems to think I can hit the horsepower I am looking for by using the stock heads with a little cleaning up, hardened valve seats, new guides, new valves and a three angle grind. He said $800 for the pair. If I was getting new aluminum heads, the ones I am looking at are about that much for each one of them.

Anyway, I will have to post later about what I am thinking for parts.

I know I will get a lot of great feedback!

Thank you!

 

[IQ52]

Tired at the moment of posting about my own builds so........I'd take my time and read through this to see what it may take to build a nice street 440.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

 

[66Satellite47]

To get into the 500-550 HP range you'll need a fairly large cam, some significant porting, probably more CR, a good intake/carb setup.
If the convertor felt like a "slipping clutch", it's not a quality piece.

 

[Ghostrider 67]

Tired at the moment of posting about my own builds so........I'd take my time and read through this to see what it may take to build a nice street 440.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html

This very close to what I have done with my 1972 440. My variation has it bored out to 0.40, 750 CFM Holley, Comp 21-306-4 cam /lifters, 11" converter......all else the same. It's Comps "biggest" cam that will still work with a stock converter. It's supposed to be their "Magnum" cam. The machine work was performed by RPM Racing Engines in Georgia, VT.

 

[Moms68]

This very close to what I have done with my 1972 440. My variation has it bored out to 0.40, 750 CFM Holley, Comp 21-306-4 cam /lifters, 11" converter......all else the same. It's Comps "biggest" cam that will still work with a stock converter. It's supposed to be their "Magnum" cam.

View attachment 1217491

Looks fantastic. Do you have any hood clearance issues with your set up?

 

[Ghostrider 67]

Looks fantastic. Do you have any hood clearance issues with your set up?

Don't know for sure yet, it's still on the stand. But, I have a 2 12" tall Hemi hood scoop and a generous diameter hole in the hood, so I doubt it. We shall see. I did some careful measuring and it's close.

 

[66Satellite47]

Ghost, looks great. hope it does what you expect.
Looks to be well beyond what the OP was talking about though.

 

[MoparHusker]

IQ: Thank you for the link to the other thread. There is a lot of great information in there.

Ghost: I would second that your setup looks pretty nice. Are those Eddy Performer heads and intake?

So, this is what I had in mind:
Crank - Polish or grind as necessary
Rods - Use stock rods, have them checked and resized if needed
Bearings - Clevite for mains, rods and cam - tri-metal for longevity
Pistons - Forged, not sure on brand, want to have CR between 10 and 10.5
Cam - Comp Cams, am looking at the 274 hydraulic flat tappet. I just think the 284 is going to be too much for the stock converter. All three guys I talked to at Arnold’s said to go with the hydraulic roller. I could change my mind. One of the said the flat tappets are junk right now. Have you heard this as well or is it simply that folks were not running the right oil or did not put in the zinc additives?
Lifters - Would love to be able use my old ones to save some bucks. Don’t have the engine apart yet, so they may not be any good. If they are not, I will have to look and see the cost difference between the flat tappet and the roller cam/lifter package.
Heads - The one guy said I could be where I wanted with the stock heads. Not sure how tha would work without a lot of porting. If it isn’t ported, having an intake with bigger runners is not going to do anything. Most likely it will be new heads. Probably going to be the Eddy Performers. Not sure on the cc’s yet. 75 or 84, depends on what I need to get into the CR I am after.
Intake - Probably going with the Eddy Performer. Want the dual plane and it seems like that would be the best combo with the heads.
Carb - I bought a Holley 770 Street Avenger. Kind of wishing I would have waited, just so I could do some more thinking about the Holley Sniper setup. I just want to have good throttle response.
Oil pump - Will have to look at prices to figure out if I want to rebuild or upgrade.
Fuel pump - Already bought the Carter, I think 6903.
Distributor - Will have to do some thinking to see if I stay with what I have or upgrade it.

Well, those are my thoughts on what I am looking at right now. Could easily change though. Just want the best bang for the buck and want to end up with a mean street machine.

Thank you for your feedback!

 

[451Mopar]

You can use a tap to chase and clean the bolt hole threads.
If doing a rebuild, I would not bother trying to get the block real clean, it can make a huge mess to cleanup.
I just scrap off the thick stuff, and let the machine shop tank the parts clean. Make sure to scrape the nooks out around the front block casting. Usually that is where I still see gunk after the block is tanked.
If replacing the heads, just leave them dirty, it will help keep them from rusting.

Plenty of engine builds listed on here. Try the search feature.

 

[RemCharger]

Sounds like good luck getting the eddy heads right now.
And no, you don't "reuse" old flat tappet lifters.

 

[66Satellite47]

Husker, for a street only performance car you are surely on the right track.
IMHO stock rods are fine, I'd polish them a bit, shot peening and ARP bolts will be very durable and handle over 6000 RPM
You need to use new lifters to match whatever cam you select
Stock heads are OK, but a lot of power/torque is gained from pocket porting. Re-doing stock iron heads may approach the cost of new aluminum heads
Chamber size depends on which pistons you choose
A Performer intake seems like a good choice, the Weiand version is worth considering
Which Holley Street Avenger do you have? It should be a good choice. The Holley Sniper may be a lot more work than you think
Which distributor do you have now? The basic Mopar electronic distributor is pretty good, the Mopar conversion dist is real good
Check out the stock oil pump, measure the rotor tip clearance, examine and feel the bushing for the rotor drive, verify the relief valve/spring moves freely
Cam selection is always a crap shoot, for a streeter you don't need to go much bigger than the stock magnum cam

 

[Ghostrider 67]

No, the heads are 346 Chrysler 440 stock units that are fully ported and polished, gasket matched, the valve chambers deshrouded and the intake is a vintage Weiand X'Celorator single plane that has been two color powder coated and worked over by @Cudachick.

RPM Racing Engines sent along a Melling High Volume oil pump because the engine will need lots of oil and has a 7 qt Hemi pan with windage tray & baffle and the HP pump would suck dry a stock pan. My pistons are Speed Pro flat top pistons, you need to buy the lifters with the cam, never reuse those. My cam is a 270/470 @50. The machine shop did my block after I electrostatically cleaned it for 24 hours to get the heavy stuff off. But they don't get paint off so consider that. Unless you have the block bead blasted. Stock rods are okay if they are low mileage and get checked by the shop. I had my Forged Steel crank polished by RPM and they remarked that it was a very nice crank to begin with. Your plans sound good to me and as someone else mentioned, there are several engine build threads on here. When I started down this road I looked up all threads by IQ52 and read them all. He knows his stuff in this area and you can take his advice and info to the bank.

 

[MWFan]

Husker, My .02c, worth every penny you paid....
As others say, no reusing lifters. Buy them with the cam and make SURE you have zinc break in oil AND use a good assembly lube.
284 is not a terribly wild cam for a 440. It might be for smaller displacement engines but not the big rb motors. I have a 440 with 9.5/1 compression running a Mopar 284-484 cam and you would not know it is not a stock cam. Idles at 800 and pulls 18 lbs. of vacuum.

 

[Challenger340]

Quick recap:
1973 Charger SE, has a 69 440. Car has not run for 25 years and I just wanted to get it to a driveable state. Made a little contraption to run the water pump to flush the engine and when I was almost done, noticed a trickle of water coming from under the car. Leaking from the side of the engine behind the motor mount and was 99% sure it was a frost plug. Decided to pull the engine and do a rebuild. Would have been difficult to get old frost plug replaced while in the car and there was no guarantee that nothing else was wrong since it has not run in 25 years. So, out comes the engine.

Having a little problem getting mounted to the engine stand. Was going to mount to the top four holes. The top two holes I could only get the bolts in about 1/2 inch. Looked around for a thread chaser and did not find one, or at least an inexpensive set. Sprayed WD-40 in the holes, used a pick to clean things up and I think it is as good as it is going to get. I can go in 3/4 in one hole and 7/8 in the other top one. Decided I would use the bottom holes instead of the middle set. Once I get it mounted, I will put some support under the oil pan, so I can unhook the engine leveler and then I will remove heads to lighten things up.

I was going to use Easy Off to degrease everything, but wondered if that is too caustic. Thoughts?

As for the current state, the car has an 8 1/4 rear with I think 2.71 open carrier. I have an 8 3/4 with 3.23 Suregrip that I will be putting in. I had put in a 2800 stall converter 28 years ago and absolutely hated how the car drove, just like it had a slipping clutch. I am replacing that with a pretty much stock converter.

The car will be for street only, no taking it to the track. I will have to do some burnouts every once in a while and give her hell between stoplights and show the 4 cylinders what power a big block Mopar has.

So, with that being said, I will want a lot of low end torque, the cam can’t be too radical, since I am running a stock converter. I had an idea in my head of somewhere between 500 and 550 HP. I will want a more flat torque curve and not just a peak. I want it to sound more than stock, so it has a little rumble to it.

I am most likely going to take it to Arnold Motor Supply to have the machine work done. Bake or boil the block, crack check it, hone or bore it, square deck it, align hone and I will ask it they can thread the holes a little deeper. I will have them put in the frost plugs and cam bearings and will have to see what they want to charge to assemble the short block.

The one guy I talked to seems to think I can hit the horsepower I am looking for by using the stock heads with a little cleaning up, hardened valve seats, new guides, new valves and a three angle grind. He said $800 for the pair. If I was getting new aluminum heads, the ones I am looking at are about that much for each one of them.

Anyway, I will have to post later about what I am thinking for parts.

I know I will get a lot of great feedback!

Thank you!


View attachment 1217298

I would disagree with the statement
"with a little cleaning up, hardened valve seats, new guides, new valves and a three angle grind. He said $800 for the pair." ?
as conducive if you are targeting 500-550 HP using the stock 906 Heads ?

In my experience....
not much if at all past 230 cfm @ .500" for the $800 budget could be expected ? and probably not supportive of the target power level given the potential of any
"the cam can’t be too radical, since I am running a stock converter"

Agree to the $800 Head work/porting/rebuild as long as the purveyor agree's to supply a Flow Sheet from a Flow Bench on your Heads PROVING in excess of 250 cfm @ .500" Lift under 28" water column...... then run a XE268H Comp Cam....
and then you may see ~ 450 hp / 500 Ft Lbs with a good Intake and Pistons that yield an honest 9.5:1 CR

I would strongly suggest any entry level Aluminum Head option be considered for the 500 hp target at 10:1 C.R. because by the time you've spend to get 250+ cfm out of factory Cast Iron Heads with a Flow Sheet..... you could have bought the entry level Aluminum Heads that Flow 265'ish OOTB anyways ?
(Stealth Heads or Eddy's Flow 260'ish to 270'ish at .600" .... NOT Eddy's "published 291 @ .600" blah blah blah)

 

[451Mopar]

Porting iron heads is a mess even with a dust extractor. I had around 10 hours into porting my 906 heads, and that was with the stock valve sizes.
Labor and parts on stock heads can get expensive if you want them to flow good and last.

Example: Just rebuilding stock heads, they may need valve guide sleeves, and replacement valves, plus labor for valve job and disassembly, cleaning, re-assembly.
I haven't done a rebuilt head in a long time, but I think the bare minimum is at least $300?
Not sure how much adding hardened exhaust valve seats, maybe another $100?
Not sure if the machine shop price will include cut spring seats and valve guides for dual springs or higher lift. Might add to the tab if needed.
If the heads are warped, and at least another $100+ to have them milled flat.
For that much spent, you just have basic rebuilt stock heads with the smaller steel valves that need the multi-rib 7-degree retainer locks, umbrella seals, and springs you provide.
Now if you want the stock heads ported and flowed by the machine shop, I would think they charge minimum $50+/hour?

Any of the aftermarket heads will have larger stainless valves with the single groove type retainers, PC valve seals, bronze valve guides, and hardened valve seats.
RPM / Stealth have a basic performance valve spring package to can work with hydraulic flat tappet cams. I believe these just use a 7-degree retainer and spring cups (or at least shims).
Because the valve stems have the single notch, it is easy to switch to 10-degree retainers and locks, and that allows a wide selection of parts where you can easily change valve spring heights if needed.
The Trick Flow heads have 4 different valve spring packages for different cam types.
The more race type heads like the Victor and Indy heads normally only come with valves because spring/retainer/lock choices will depend more on the specific cam used and the builders preference/costs.

I think I just watched MoparJoe on You Tube go over a set of the low end Edelbrock heads. They were concerned about the chamber maybe being a bit larger than the head gasket (Might have been a McCord gasket?) I think the Fel-Pro 8519PT gasket is about 0.039" thick and has a fairly large bore size (Summit shows 4.505"?) for the fire ring which would be an easy fix. He is supposed to go over a Trick-Flow 240 head next.


Trick Flow video just dropped:

 

[MoparHusker]

Thank you again for the replies! As always there is a wealth of knowledge being shared.

I have a few things to share:
1. I was finally able to do some tear down on the engine. The picture at the bottom shows some discoloration, so I definitely will be using new lifters. I was actually surprised at how clean the valley is. A few deposits, but much better than I expected.

2. I enjoyed the link to Challener340’s thread on the other forum. I had kind of zeroed in on the XE274H. I am planning to run the stock converter, so I thought that would be a good match. I felt the XE284H was too much cam. I based this on the specs on Summit Racing and more specifically the operating range. I figured it would be prudent to give Comp Cams a call to get information right from the factory. I was on hold for a while and finally talked to a guy. I told him what I was trying to do and gave him some information and he came back recommending the XE262H. I asked about other two cams mentioned above and he said it was too much for a close to stock converter. I said I had seen where others were using a those cams. I asked what would happen if I used one of them. I must have made him mad, because he said, “I do this all day, every day, and I gave you my recommendation.” I said I am simply trying to learn. He said that you should add 400 rpm to where your cam starts operating and that is where your torque converter should be. The XE274H has a range from 1,800 to 6,000, so I would want to run a 2200 stall converter. For the XE284H it would be a 2800 stall. So, with their recommendation for cam, am I still going to be able to hit my target of 500HP? Could I go to the XE268H without issue? How will the torque be?

3. On the torque converter, I mentioned having a 2800 stall in the car currently and that I was not happy with it. Thinking back to my stock converter, when I would romp on the accelerator I would get planted in the seat. After I got the tranny rebuilt and put in the new converter, I took one of my friends for a ride. We came around a corner and he asked if it had a 318. I put the hammer down and it really was quite embarrassing as it was spinning up. I wanted to plant him in the seat to show him what a 440 could do. So, that is why I want to go back to a stock converter, so I an get back to having a quick response and being able to feel the power.

4. On the carb, I actually called Holley and told them at that time I was leaving the engine stock and that down the road I was going to rebuild it and be shooting for the 500-550 HP range. I said I wanted a carb that would work for both scenarios. He thought the Street Avenger 770 would be the right carb. One of the Arnold’s Motors guys told me that was too much carb. He pulled out a chart and looked at what I wanted for rpms and the cubic inches and said a 650 would be the right carb. In talking to the cam guy today he said essentially the same thing.

5. I looked at the heads videos and it will be frustrating, after spending that much money, that I have to then spend more money to get them cleaned up. It showed the Eddy E Street, but I would be looking at the Eddy Performer heads. Would I expect the same quality issues with them?

There is just so much to learn and I just want to build this thing once and have it work flawlessly as long as I am able to drive, which I hope is a long time.

Thank you again for the feedback!

 

[RemCharger]

Learning how to build the all scenario perfect engine over the internet can be daunting.

 

[Ghostrider 67]

As I mentioned above,, seek out the threads by IQ52 concerning building the 440. He even charts the dyno results for all combinations. Other than doing the combos yourself and charting your own result his efforts are the next best thing.

Look here.....here's 10 pages of results.....ALL good info.

Search Results | For B Bodies Only Classic Mopar Forum

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Torque convertors have changed. You likely had a old school loose convertor. If it was one of the cheaper brands it likely was even slipping. Our first stall "decades ago" was a 3500 and a 440 simply over powered it. It acted like a rubber band.. it probably was fine for a sb chevy. Now convertors can be dialed in for your combination. We went from a oem 2200 to a dynamic 9 1/2 4200 made for our combo. Around town it moves the car better then the 2200 did. When it flashes at 4200 there is NO way not like it.

A cfm calculator is just a air pump calculator. Yes it's a tool but keep in mind you do not have 2 size a carb perfectly. Carbs are on demand. Don't over think it when getting a bigger carb. Dodge used 800+cfm on there big blocks in the 70s. 6 pack even more. Your engine man can put 650 cfm on his big block chevy customers rides. Don't let him do it on your 500hp mopar.

 

[66Satellite47]

I said it before, I'll say it again. And Curious echoed my thoughts. A GOOD convertor can make the car. Many less expensive convertors were basically junk 45 years ago and still are. A correctly built convertor will act like a stocker at light & medium throttle and scream when you put your foot in it.
The vacuum secondary 750 style Holley's are very forgiving for the rest of the combination. Generally, I agree that a smaller carb is a better choice, but the 750-770 Holley vacuum carbs are hard to beat, IMHO they are easy to tune. Get a Holley book to learn how they work and what the different system's in the carb do. Tuning parts are readily available.
Take the Comp phone guys with a grain of salt, very few know much about Mopar's. Only the "back room guys" can give really good recommendations.
IMHO all the aftermarket aluminum heads need a quality performance oriented examination before use. My EDE RPM's were pretty good quality, but the valve job was not perfect and the guide fit was a little borderline. The EDE RPM's would be a good choice, for your application the ports don't need any work.