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67 Belvedere II brake upgrade

Kingfish

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Joined
Nov 10, 2014
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Location
Pass Christian Mississippi
Originally a manual drum/drum... bought a PirateJack power disk/drum and NOT happy with the results. The kit came with a 1" piston Master Cylinder, I used a 90's Ram 1500 calibers and 11.75 rotor. On brake application the peddle travels almost to the floor and not a lot of braking. The car wasn't safe so I changed the MC to 1.25" and added a 10#residual to the rear drums. Drivable but still nothing to brag about. During a panic stop I can't get front or rear to lockup. (on or off road). I've run out of ideas and need help. If you purchased this type kit, I'd like to know how you got your kit to work for you...
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Thanks KingFish
 
Originally a manual drum/drum... bought a PirateJack power disk/drum and NOT happy with the results. The kit came with a 1" piston Master Cylinder, I used a 90's Ram 1500 calibers and 11.75 rotor. On brake application the peddle travels almost to the floor and not a lot of braking. The car wasn't safe so I changed the MC to 1.25" and added a 10#residual to the rear drums. Drivable but still nothing to brag about. During a panic stop I can't get front or rear to lockup. (on or off road). I've run out of ideas and need help. If you purchased this type kit, I'd like to know how you got your kit to work for you...View attachment 408729 Thanks KingFish

You may not have enough fluid displacement for all the cylinders in the braking system. I believe that's why you went with a larger bore master cylinder. Problem is, the larger the master bore, the harder it is to push the pedal and get enough force at the braking cylinders. How large are the pistons in those calipers. Did they come off a power equiped Ram? Rule of thumb is if you take took the calipers from the truck you should have taken the master as well even if just to measure the stroke and bore. If the truck was power boosted, you should have taken that as well. Some brake components just don't mix well, but when it's engineered as a complete system you know it'll work. Where was the pin located on the truck brake arm in respect to your brake arm. Your pedal ratio may be way off. Did the truck have disks on the rear with large pistons? I took a complete hydro boost system off a 2002 GMC 2500 that had disk up front and drums out back. Other than a few little mods to mount the system on mine, when all was said and done, holly sh*t, what a braking system. If the pedal bottoms and you don't have positive braking, re-bleed the system, run the rear shoes as close to the drum as possible ( the residual valve is a great idea and belongs as close to the master as possible), install a manual proportioning valve and bench bleed the master again. Using the prop valve, close off the rear system completely and see if braking improves. If it does then your running out of fluid volume. If it's really hard, the master bore is too big, 15/16 is about right for power and 3/4 for manual. 1 1/4 is a master in the hydro boost style or a damn big vacuum booster with a long pedal attached to it. Look online at pre-engineered systems and see what components, their bore, and stroke and compare them to what you have. Go back to that truck and measure for pedal ratio and brake arm length. All will be revealed after a bit of investigation.
 
You may not have enough fluid displacement for all the cylinders in the braking system. I believe that's why you went with a larger bore master cylinder. Problem is, the larger the master bore, the harder it is to push the pedal and get enough force at the braking cylinders. How large are the pistons in those calipers. Did they come off a power equiped Ram? Rule of thumb is if you take took the calipers from the truck you should have taken the master as well even if just to measure the stroke and bore. If the truck was power boosted, you should have taken that as well. Some brake components just don't mix well, but when it's engineered as a complete system you know it'll work. Where was the pin located on the truck brake arm in respect to your brake arm. Your pedal ratio may be way off. Did the truck have disks on the rear with large pistons? I took a complete hydro boost system off a 2002 GMC 2500 that had disk up front and drums out back. Other than a few little mods to mount the system on mine, when all was said and done, holly sh*t, what a braking system. If the pedal bottoms and you don't have positive braking, re-bleed the system, run the rear shoes as close to the drum as possible ( the residual valve is a great idea and belongs as close to the master as possible), install a manual proportioning valve and bench bleed the master again. Using the prop valve, close off the rear system completely and see if braking improves. If it does then your running out of fluid volume. If it's really hard, the master bore is too big, 15/16 is about right for power and 3/4 for manual. 1 1/4 is a master in the hydro boost style or a damn big vacuum booster with a long pedal attached to it. Look online at pre-engineered systems and see what components, their bore, and stroke and compare them to what you have. Go back to that truck and measure for pedal ratio and brake arm length. All will be revealed after a bit of investigation.
 
Yatzee, Thank you for all the information..I'll have to run some numbers on the calipers and find out what I bought. I have a 8" dual power boost and the 10#residual is several feet away for the master cylinder. If you have some numbers on your system (power boost and master cylinder) because it works! I'd like to look them up and check out the specification. Thanks again...Kingfish :)
 
I don't have anything to add as it seems like you guys are on the right track...I just want to post and say you have a sexy ride. Love the color and look with the wheel/tire combo. :thumbsup:
 
Originally a manual drum/drum... bought a PirateJack power disk/drum and NOT happy with the results. The kit came with a 1" piston Master Cylinder, I used a 90's Ram 1500 calibers and 11.75 rotor. On brake application the peddle travels almost to the floor and not a lot of braking. The car wasn't safe so I changed the MC to 1.25" and added a 10#residual to the rear drums. Drivable but still nothing to brag about. During a panic stop I can't get front or rear to lockup. (on or off road). I've run out of ideas and need help. If you purchased this type kit, I'd like to know how you got your kit to work for you...View attachment 408729 Thanks KingFish

I've given some serious thought to your dilema and concluded that the 1 1/4 master should displace enough fluid to actuate the braking system provided the front caliper pistons aren't of a super-size. That being said, and providing there is no air in the system that only leaves two issues. First I'd be sure the rear drums are adjusted as close to the drums as possible and with the manual proportioning valve shut off the rear circuit completely ( you need a manual prop valve as there are no OEM styles guaranteed to work for this application). Remove the front wheels, apply the brakes and note the pedal position in relation to the pad's position on both front calipers. Is it to the floor almost? Now remove the calipers and insert a wooden block about an 1/8 narrower than your rotor. Again push the pedal as above and note the position of the brake pedal to the floor. Are you using a power booster? If so you'll have to push the pedal a few time to get the pistons out and unfortunately the engine has to be running. If it floors both times then your pedal ratio is way off. Take a glance at this and Google "brake pedal ratio" for more info:

http://www.mpbrakes.com/techtalk/how-to-series/correctly-calculating-pedal-ratio

As I said earlier the ratio and the stroke length have to be correct to get the right fluid displacement and pedal travel. You may have to change the pin/hole position on the brake arm to achieve this. That's why you need to know the pedal ratio and brake arm length of the RAM truck the calipers came from. Was it a deisel truck with hydro boost or vacuum boost? In other words, Ram calipers + Ram style booster + Ram style master + Ram pedal ratio = Ram brakes. You've got one of these variables causing your issue because a RAM truck fully loaded was engineered with one hell of a set of brakes to stop it.
 
6 to 1 is what I have now and I need to change to an optima of 4 to 1. Maybe that's why it feels like manual brakes vs. power.. My "old" hotrod buddy told me to check the ratio before I started the project. Need to do some drilling... thanks.
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How many different Brake pedal assemblies were made for that car? I had manual drums in my 64. I changed pedals and put a power pedal in without knowing the difference. Because the pedal hinge points are different between power and manual, the ratio is different as well. a Manual pedal with a power booster will make the pedal almost feel like there is no pressure. I'm not sure for your year but in 64 there were 4 or 6 different pedal assemblies listed in the parts book. Your year might be different but it's worth a check.
 
Once I finally put the manual pedal back in, and put in an adjustable prop valve in the rear line, my front disc conversion worked great.
 
Maybe I'm on to something? My front calibers are Duralast C555/C554 no specification as to the piston size but the master cylinder listed is 1.25" for that year 1999 Dodge Ram 1500 2W. My ratio is 6 to 1 now and if I change it 4 to 1.... I'll be enjoying great brakes??
 
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