67 Charger headlight woes

[67mag]

Howdy folks,
I have reached the end of my abilities it looks like trying to get the original hideway system to work on my 67. I have replaced all four limit switches, all flat connectors to the switches, cleaned ground wire to the circuit. I have a new set of Bosch relays as well as having the override switch rebuilt. My motors are working with my aftermarket switch I wired up years ago so I may be stuck using that system. When I pull the light switch out I hear the motors starting to roll for a second then nothing, I get flickering from the relays/interior lights and the plug for the light switch feels warm and I dont want to burn anything up. The only thing I have no swapped is the light switch itself but I do have a new one on the bench. Has anyone else ran into these symptoms with there 66/67? I imagine its not terrible having a seperate switch as it reduces the load rotating but it would have been nice to have the original system working.

 

[Don Frelier]

The power for the electric motors comes from a circuit breaker in the drivers side kickpanel. (Not the headlight switch that just does the relays)
It sounds like this breaker is "tripping".

 

[67mag]

The power for the electric motors comes from a circuit breaker in the drivers side kickpanel. (Not the headlight switch that just does the relays)
It sounds like this breaker is "tripping".

Thanks a bundle Don, I put the old breaker back in before I swapped the harnes plugs on the limit switches. I became a little paranoid when I noticed the harness to the switch was getting warm lol. Maybe I should swap that breaker and try again! Thanks for the heads up and help!!

 

[Don Frelier]

Thanks a bundle Don, I put the old breaker back in before I swapped the harnes plugs on the limit switches. I became a little paranoid when I noticed the harness to the switch was getting warm lol. Maybe I should swap that breaker and try again! Thanks for the heads up and help!!

Well how much I've helped remains to be seen...

 

[67mag]

Heck any help is okay in my books Don Swapped the breaker no dice. At Least I can roll them around when I need too luckily but appreciate dropping me a line!

 

[Don Frelier]

Both breakers are tripping then likely you have a motor load that is too large.
You can try isolating one at time BUT the relays look for both motors to break the limit switches so be careful if you try that.
SO if you only rotate one side the relays will call for both motors to run until the limit switches are broken.
It's a weakness in the design.
Are your buckets straight? Meaning are they level when viewed from the front?
There is a plastic bushing on the non-driven end which falls apart after about 50 years.
If you have a way to measure the current at each motor with the bypass setup it might be helpful.

 

[67mag]

Thats a very good breakdown there for sure! I will keep both hooked up if I go any further. I checked my buckets and they look to be in their correct position( the bushing is still there on both sides) but I will order a set just in case. I am going to measure the amps drawn from each motor tommorow with the wife throwing the switch for me and report back to you with my findings. I did try again this afternoon with a new switch but had same result and may have seen a tiny puff of smoke from somewhere or possibly from the connector itself as I had sprayed contact cleaner on it. I removed the limit switch adjusters and cleaned the threads up before putting back in, with the lights closed I dialed both in until I heard the click from the switch then went a bit further so the bucket wasnt moving anymore. It is posisble the limit switches were not fully engaged when I installed them as I did not adjust anything not sure if that would prevent it from working but I imagine the switch triggers the relay or something of that nature.
Thanks again Don

 

[67mag]

Love the steel rims with the raised white lettering on your 66, that is one killer looking Charger!

 

[bcOH67]

I had the same problems. Everything new and rebuilt. All new wiring. Would work once and then nothing, then it wouldn't work at all. Everything checked out on its own...grounds...everything. Cried myself to sleep multiple times lol. So I went to the dark side and ended up making my own system ( I think others have too, but I 'm not sure how it compares to what they've done) So I bypassed the relays in the glove box and just used the wire coming off of the headlight switch to control the new relays I put under battery tray. The only thing that doesn't work now is the hold open, which is fine with me because I like the way they look closed better. And if I need to change bulbs I'll just open them and disconnect the battery. Is it original?..no..but I don't care because they open and close every time now haha. That with Crackedback's headlight bulb harness, my lights are better than ever. I just hooked up the hold open switch as an on/off for my backup camera

 

[twecomm]

Based on some of the history of your initial post it sounds like a check of your motors is needed. I worked on mine many years ago as they were acting sluggish moving the buckets and seemed to be binding up. Taking the motors apart, I found that there is a bushing ( plastic ? ) of sorts that's in the shaft exit of the motor housing where the plastic planetary reduction gears are. Think this bushing served the purpose of creating a weather/ moisture seal where the shaft exits the motor housing. This bushing is in the housing/casting and the shaft passes thru it. This is where the binding on the motors actuator shaft was causing the sticking, dragging and the sluggish movement. If motors don't turn freely, they will draw excessive current. I used some fine emery cloth to slightly increase the ID of the bushing and the OD of the shaft, and lubed the bushing and shaft, re-assembeled and checked one last time before re-installing, that did the trick. The motors themselves have internal thermal breakers of sorts protecting the motor windings from excessive current so they don't burn up. Certainly the kick panel circuit breaker is at play and is in the path feeding volts to the motors providing primary protection as indicated by posts by the others.
I find it's best to test the motors not attached to the buckets, but loose. Make sure that the buckets are moving freely and no binding is occurring on those... On the 3 pin connector of the motors, one of the 3 pins is attached to a screw on the motor outer case and it is ground (-12V ), of the other 2 wires, one wire is for cw rotation, the other wire is for ccw rotation. You can use the cars battery or a 12 V battery charger and some clip leads to test the motors while loose. Being careful, just momentarily touch + 12 volts to one of the two remaining pins at a time. It will either move CW or CCW direction. Then apply volts for longer to see what the motors doing. It should move smoothly throughout travel and not seem to be sluggish or binding throughout travel. Doing this will prove it is or is not a motor problem. Motor direction is controlled thru the relays and the limit switches control the relays. If you have a schematic that helps understand the workings of the control relays in a stock setup.. Good luck with it.

 

[67mag]

I had the same problems. Everything new and rebuilt. All new wiring. Would work once and then nothing, then it wouldn't work at all. Everything checked out on its own...grounds...everything. Cried myself to sleep multiple times lol. So I went to the dark side and ended up making my own system ( I think others have too, but I 'm not sure how it compares to what they've done) So I bypassed the relays in the glove box and just used the wire coming off of the headlight switch to control the new relays I put under battery tray. The only thing that doesn't work now is the hold open, which is fine with me because I like the way they look closed better. And if I need to change bulbs I'll just open them and disconnect the battery. Is it original?..no..but I don't care because they open and close every time now haha. That with Crackedback's headlight bulb harness, my lights are better than ever. I just hooked up the hold open switch as an on/off for my backup camera

No kidding I have had many head scratching moments here lol. Its sort of what I did years back altough mine is very basic (two way switch fused seperate from original) I would be interested to go your route and will investigate further for sure! I love Crackedbacks stuff I think when she goes in for paint again I will pull apart the buckets and grab one of his harness's. You know I am really starting to wonder if I should just stick to my setup and am a little paranoid now with my switch heating up when testing the original circuit. I am going to test the draw on each motor first here before I throw the towel in as several folks have suggested they may be drawing to many amps.
Love the backup camera idea overall thats ingenious!!
Thanks for the shout out again!
Dave

 

[67mag]

Based on some of the history of your initial post it sounds like a check of your motors is needed. I worked on mine many years ago as they were acting sluggish moving the buckets and seemed to be binding up. Taking the motors apart, I found that there is a bushing ( plastic ? ) of sorts that's in the shaft exit of the motor housing where the plastic planetary reduction gears are. Think this bushing served the purpose of creating a weather/ moisture seal where the shaft exits the motor housing. This bushing is in the housing/casting and the shaft passes thru it. This is where the binding on the motors actuator shaft was causing the sticking, dragging and the sluggish movement. If motors don't turn freely, they will draw excessive current. I used some fine emery cloth to slightly increase the ID of the bushing and the OD of the shaft, and lubed the bushing and shaft, re-assembeled and checked one last time before re-installing, that did the trick. The motors themselves have internal thermal breakers of sorts protecting the motor windings from excessive current so they don't burn up. Certainly the kick panel circuit breaker is at play and is in the path feeding volts to the motors providing primary protection as indicated by posts by the others.
I find it's best to test the motors not attached to the buckets, but loose. Make sure that the buckets are moving freely and no binding is occurring on those... On the 3 pin connector of the motors, one of the 3 pins is attached to a screw on the motor outer case and it is ground (-12V ), of the other 2 wires, one wire is for cw rotation, the other wire is for ccw rotation. You can use the cars battery or a 12 V battery charger and some clip leads to test the motors while loose. Being careful, just momentarily touch + 12 volts to one of the two remaining pins at a time. It will either move CW or CCW direction. Then apply volts for longer to see what the motors doing. It should move smoothly throughout travel and not seem to be sluggish or binding throughout travel. Doing this will prove it is or is not a motor problem. Motor direction is controlled thru the relays and the limit switches control the relays. If you have a schematic that helps understand the workings of the control relays in a stock setup.. Good luck with it.

Thanks a bundle for the info here thats going to be my next step tommorow! I had no idea the motors had thermal breakers and I have had the car for decades lol jesh I am going to pop the meter on the motors tommorow and see if I can lubricate the outer bushings. I dont seem to see any binding they just roll somewhat slowly and one always beats the other but I have seen many of our first gens sort of wink as they are closing lol. Thanks a bundle I will roll up my sleeves and take another crack at it again tommorow. Worst case I have my original bypass switch I made years ago I just figured I had the dash out so why not look into getting the original system working.

 

[twecomm]

I don't know that what's inside the motor is a "resettable" protection device but more likely a one time device. Not knowing where it would be possible to find a replacement, I was not wanting to trash a good motor to find out, but there is some kind of what appears to be a protective device inside the motors..
Anyone else know for sure ? When working properly the original system works well..

 

[RemCharger]

I don't know that what's inside the motor is a "resettable" protection device but more likely a one time device. Not knowing where it would be possible to find a replacement, I was not wanting to trash a good motor to find out, but there is some kind of what appears to be a protective device inside the motors..
Anyone else know for sure ? When working properly the original system works well..

Yes there's a thermal breaker much like a power window motor. They can burn up and be a source of aggravation

 

[Don Frelier]

He said the motors work with a simple three position switch.

 

[twecomm]

But how well ??

 

[Don Frelier]

But how well ??

I don't know but it seems the thermal overload in the motors themselves are not tripping but he seems to be tripping the feed breaker.
Sorry I wasn't real clear there...

 

[67mag]

But how well ??

They work quite good actually it was many moons ago I rigged the system into a toggle switch with a relay on both sides and fused. The only downside when I did it is its not switched so if you bump it by mistake the lights will roll lol. As far as I remember my dad telling me is when he started the resto back in 88 the original limit switches were shot and draining the battery so he left the lights exposed. When I took over the resto I wanted them to roll as to me its dam sexy looking on our first gens and was a must! He did not tell me anything about removing or modding anything else in the circuit. So this year when I had the instrument cluster out replacing the tach drive I decided to dig into the original circuit finally. I grabbed the relays and limit switches from Topher( AWESOME FELLOW but everyone knows that!) replaced the body plugs with the same ones Topher used on the switches, checked the ground at the battery and had my override switch cleaned by Brian Ashcraft( ANOTHER AWESOME FELLOW!!!) highly recommend. I got my adjusters freed up and dialed them in to the switches and then pulled the light switch out....the lights start to roll for a split second then I can hear clicking from the relays and the wiring harness to the light switch is getting warm which now has me paranoid. On a side note I am going to have a friend of mine fabricate some of those adjusters at the end of the season just in case anyone needs them.

 

[67mag]

Yes there's a thermal breaker much like a power window motor. They can burn up and be a source of aggravation

Thats interesting would that render the motors lifeless? Mine are still working albeit one moves a bit slower then the other.

 

[67mag]

I don't know that what's inside the motor is a "resettable" protection device but more likely a one time device. Not knowing where it would be possible to find a replacement, I was not wanting to trash a good motor to find out, but there is some kind of what appears to be a protective device inside the motors..
Anyone else know for sure ? When working properly the original system works well..

I have a spare set of motors that are working but maybe since they are out would be a good idea to have Topher rebuild them so I know they are not pulling to much power I know hes super busy but he is magic!