Alignment Issues

[Charlie Brown]

Car in question is a 64 Polara. Pretty sure there was never any structural damage. I've installed Moog K 7103 off set bushings at both control arm locations (total 4 bushings).
New lower control bushings etc.
I have a Blue Point (Snap on) bubble caster / camber gauge with turntables. Never used one before, but I think I'm using it correctly.
Best readings I can get is drivers side neg 1/4 degree camber and pos. 1 3/8 degrees caster.
On the passenger side the best I can get is 1/4 degree neg camber and 5/8 degrees pos caster.
With the Moog offset bushings I should be getting way more caster. I installed bushings as per attached link.
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/suspension-upgrade.213487/#post-911826643 See post #7
I've spent hours on this and it's driving me bonkers. Comments welcomed.
Charlie

 

[WileE]

You're following factory procedures ? Everything is intact/undamaged, starting from the k-frame strut-rod mount ? ( We used to get in the shop, car hit a pothole & pushed the LCA backward, causing the strut mount in the k-frame to "cup" ) check it.

 

[Charlie Brown]

I'm pretty sure I'm following factory procedures. I first set suspension ht to specs then tackled camber / caster adjustments. The K frame at struts looks OK. LCA bushings are new as are the strut bushings.
I'm thinking I'm using my alignment tools incorrectly or the upper bushings are installed wrong - but I tripled check them. If the UCA bushings were installed wrong, would I even get any pos. caster?

 

[oldkimmer]

Start with the upper control arms. Adjust the front all the way out. Adjust the rear all the way in. On both sides. Then adjust the toe. What do u have for readings now? Kim

 

[MoparLeo]

The first thing to set before doing any alignment is ride height. If it is not set to factory specs ( in your factory service manual) you will not get the full range of possible adjustment.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Ride height is set at 2 1/16 inch. With alignment cams at the all in / out positions, produced pos. 1/4 degree camber / pos.
1 1/2 degrees caster on the drivers side and pos 1/2 camber / pos 1 1/2 caster on the passenger side. Toe is 0 (for now). Shooting for 1/8 in.

 

[dvw]

You used 4 offset bushings. How are they installed? The fronts should have the inner sleeve inward of center. The rears should have the inner sleeve outward of center. If they are correct? Make sure the rear of the arm is not contacting the shock tower. What is the rocker panel angle? If the rear of the car is high, caster will lose angle at a 1 to 1 ratio.
Doug

 

[4406bbl]

Sounds like the bushings are in right. When stuff is off that far it is best to level the car by the rockers on a nice clean garage floor, plumb bob down from the suspension points like the rear spring eye center and rear k frame bolt, or the torsion bar crossmember, establish that the car is square within reason, then plumb bob the center of the of the lower ball joint at ride height. Chalk mark your floor, it will not take long to figure it out. You will be surprised how far off that strut rod setup can be even when everything looks good.

 

[MoparLeo]

Shouldn't ride height be lower, about 1 7/8" factory ?

 

[Charlie Brown]

You used 4 offset bushings. How are they installed? The fronts should have the inner sleeve inward of center. The rears should have the inner sleeve outward of center. If they are correct? Make sure the rear of the arm is not contacting the shock tower. What is the rocker panel angle? If the rear of the car is high, caster will lose angle at a 1 to 1 ratio.
Doug

Doug,
In regards to bushing positioning. If I understand you correctly, the front control arm bushing sleeve should be closest to the engine block and the rear closest to the fender?

You used 4 offset bushings. How are they installed? The fronts should have the inner sleeve inward of center. The rears should have the inner sleeve outward of center. If they are correct? Make sure the rear of the arm is not contacting the shock tower. What is the rocker panel angle? If the rear of the car is high, caster will lose angle at a 1 to 1 ratio.
Doug

Hi Doug,
Just to confirm, the front bushing sleeve, and by extension, the adjuster bolt, should be closest to the engine at the front and towards the fender at the rear bushing. I'm going to pull the control arms to confirm this.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Shouldn't ride height be lower, about 1 7/8" factory ?

Hi Leo,
FSM states 2 1/8 inches + /- 1/8 inch for factory HD suspension. I have upgraded torsion bars and shocks, so I'm thinking I should be in the ball park.

 

[dvw]

Doug,
In regards to bushing positioning. If I understand you correctly, the front control arm bushing sleeve should be closest to the engine block and the rear closest to the fender?

Hi Doug,
Just to confirm, the front bushing sleeve, and by extension, the adjuster bolt, should be closest to the engine at the front and towards the fender at the rear bushing. I'm going to pull the control arms to confirm this.

That is correct. No need to remove the control arm. Rotate the bolt/cam so the bolt is at the top or bottom in the center of its travel. Then look at the bolt where it is centered in the arm itself. The front of the arm should be outward of center, the rear inward.
Doug

 

[Charlie Brown]

That is correct. No need to remove the control arm. Rotate the bolt/cam so the bolt is at the top or bottom in the center of its travel. Then look at the bolt where it is centered in the arm itself. The front of the arm should be outward of center, the rear inward.
Doug

Ok, so attached are pics of Drivers side control arm. First, are the bushings installed correctly? I've chalked the arrow on the bushing for clarity. Second, I notice that bushings are not quite parallel to the arm. Would this affect alignment numbers significantly? The pic with the arrow chalked on top indicates front of car.
Charlie

 

[dvw]

They are correct. During the alignment start with both forward cams all the out. Then adjust camber withe rear cams. Then check caster. Still not enough? Then you have two options. Install aftermarket adjustable upper control arms. Or shorten the strut rods. I guess we should talk about that. I'm assuming the strut rod bushings are installed correctly. Shortening the strut rids is pretty easy. But it doesn't gain a ton. Did you measure your rocker panel angle?
Doug

 

[Charlie Brown]

They are correct. During the alignment start with both forward cams all the out. Then adjust camber withe rear cams. Then check caster. Still not enough? Then you have two options. Install aftermarket adjustable upper control arms. Or shorten the strut rods. I guess we should talk about that. I'm assuming the strut rod bushings are installed correctly. Shortening the strut rids is pretty easy. But it doesn't gain a ton. Did you measure your rocker panel angle?
Doug

When I installed the arms, I had the front cams all the way out and the rear cams all the way in. These were the readings.
pos. 1/4 degree camber / pos. 1 1/2 degrees caster on the drivers side and pos 1/2 camber / pos 1 1/2 caster on the passenger side. Toe is 0 (for now). Shooting for 1/8 in.
Best numbers I could achieve are listed in post #1
In regards to strut bushings - is there a wrong way to install? They are the two piece design. Rods are straight.
How and where do I measure the rocker panel angle. Appreciate the help.
Charlie

 

[Charlie Brown]

Sounds like the bushings are in right. When stuff is off that far it is best to level the car by the rockers on a nice clean garage floor, plumb bob down from the suspension points like the rear spring eye center and rear k frame bolt, or the torsion bar crossmember, establish that the car is square within reason, then plumb bob the center of the of the lower ball joint at ride height. Chalk mark your floor, it will not take long to figure it out. You will be surprised how far off that strut rod setup can be even when everything looks good.

Thanks for this, As a retired carpenter I'm familiar with squaring things. Am I to assume that after I plumb bob and chalk the LCA ball joints on the floor that I square these points to the rear marks on the floor measuring length and diagonals from these 4 points? Also, you mentioned car should be square within reason - what would you define as within reason.
Thanks, Charlie

 

[Charlie Brown]

I have another question as I await replies to my other enquiries. In the attached sketch, when installing the Moog offset bushings, which is the correct axis to install these A or B or other?

 

[4406bbl]

Thanks for this, As a retired carpenter I'm familiar with squaring things. Am I to assume that after I plumb bob and chalk the LCA ball joints on the floor that I square these points to the rear marks on the floor measuring length and diagonals from these 4 points? Also, you mentioned car should be square within reason - what would you define as within reason.
Thanks, Charlie

Working at the moment, what year car and I will get you frame specs, and what little I know.

 

[RemCharger]

I have another question as I await replies to my other enquiries. In the attached sketch, when installing the Moog offset bushings, which is the correct axis to install these A or B or other?

View attachment 1268573

Looking at your control arm pictures I'd say you're fine.
A axis is correct, b axis is meaningless as its not at ride height.
If I'm reading your question and picture correctly.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Working at the moment, what year car and I will get you frame specs, and what little I know.

1964 Polara convert