BB efi

[moperformance]

I'm really interested in converting my 64 Fury to efi. I work 30 miles away from home and any substansial increase in mileage would be welcomed. I've converted the auto to a trem. 5 speed and put a two bb set up on it.
I just hate to part with the money that everybody wants for a drop in system.
Does anybody have any ideas? Thanks in advance.

 

[gremlinsteve]

what drop in system are you looking for?
and what is your price range?

 

[Cranky]

Uh, what makes you think you will get a 'substantial increase' in fuel mileage with EFI? An engine needs so much fuel to make power and if the ratio is right with the carb, you will see decent mileage but some carbs are better than others. Most of the time, a well tuned EFI will produce better numbers but it won't be substantial. A small 4 barrel carb is usually better over a 2 barrel unless you stick your foot into it. The best fuel mileage I've seen with any of my cars was with a TQ. Driving with a vacuum gauge will usually help more than anything tho....

 

[Meep-Meep]

Probably the cheapest thing out there is the Mega squirt kits http://www.diyautotune.com/ Or you can find an old Holley ProJection TBI system at a swap meet for a couple of hundred bucks like I did. I have yet to try it out and for the low initial cost it's not much of a gamble if I loose. Cranky is onto something tho. If you spend a significant amount of money getting only a couple of MPG over what you were doing your payback may take forever. Like you pointed out some of those systems are $2K or more and that buys a lot of gas for an occasional driver. My main interest in trying FI is to eliminate the typical drivability problems associated with today's gas when used with carbs.

 

[YY1]

...and one pump, turn the key and it starts used to be a goal to be proud of.
Now- if that doesn't happen with EFI you've got a potential problem.

 

[65belv]

Like some others, I have been looking at EFI for a big block for quite some time. It doesn't appear that a significant increase in mileage is a realistic expectation for the conversion and it's a lot of $$$ up front for any possible pay back over a very long period of time.

 

[moperformance]

Yes you all are right! It's my daily driver and 5 mpg would be a substantial (to me any way) increase. The spread bore (TQ) with it's super small primary's like you said is probably the best bet IF I could keep my foot out of it which is why the two barrel is on there in the first place. And if it dies, it's dead. At least for the moment, since my "current" profession is electronics, troubleshooting the system isn't an issue. A pain granted because you can at least gravity feel a carb and make it back home.
I have been driving with a vacuum gauge while trying to keep the engine in it's "happy spot" which has helped.
I guess I was just wondering if anyone has adapted another oem's set up (from junk/ salvage yard) that has the same firing order. I know on the slantsix.org site they have adapted different efi's to a modified intake.
Thanks again.

 

[Cranky]

What engine is in your Fury? I get 10 to 15% better mileage in my wife's 2000 Durango than she does but that's not saying much when she gets 12 in town and I get 13+. On the road, it gets 19 @ 60 but only 13 @ 80. I would have thought it would be a bit better in town since it has a 3.90 gear which helps this heavy pig get rolling. I had a 67 Dart that got around 18 in town but jumped to 25 when I went from a 2.94 to a 3.91! I guess the Dart's major factor was the weight difference. The Durango is 4600. Another car, a 66 Mustang Fastback got 21 on the road with a 289, 4 speed and a 2.80 gear but only 12 in town but it also had a 650 Holley DP on it and DP's suck in town. It also ran a flat 15 1/4 mile with in that configuration with headers and Torker intake. My 95 Dakota V6 only gets 16 in town with 3.55 gears. No, I don't drive it half way decent either because it really doesn't help. My 5.2 Dakota with 3.9 gears got 15 in town driving briskly and was 1.3 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile than the V6 Dakota. The Durango runs 16.40 vs the V6's 16.60. The Magnum engines are Magnums because of the fuel curve, heads, exhaust are better than the previous engines but burn more fuel than the previous engines did. I'm not sure if the cam is different tho. The more fuel and air you put through them, the more power they make but if you lean them down, you'll need to make changes in the cam, install small port intake and heads etc. You can make a bigger engine get good fuel numbers but you may as well just go to a smaller engine to start with. A 318 can knock down good numbers if built right and the car is light enough. The new cars get nice numbers but the computer does all the little tricks for us and then you have the VCT engines and the list goes on. The VCT does a LOT for power and economy and so do the ones with VCM system. This stuff sounds pretty cool until it starts to malfunction....I'll take the old way any day. Put a 4 barrel on your Fury and disconnect the secondaries or go with a TQ and do that. IIRC, the TQ has the smallest primary than any other carb.

 

[moperformance]

The current engine is a 383. I'm getting 15mpg average back and forth to work running pretty close to 75 most of the way with a little in town driving to get headed in the right direction. On the interstate running a constant 80(ish) I'm dead on 20 mpg. Faster/worse 70/better. !4" tires,3:23 rear. sounds like I could be doing a whole lot worse. I'll try a spread bore and see what happens.
Thx

 

[Cranky]

I would say you're doing pretty dang good on the freeway! A 2.94 gear might help. Had a 70 383 Challenger that got 12 with a 3.23 doing 80 and a 2.94 put it at 16. On the other hand, my dad who had a 77 New Yuker with a 440 got 17 on the highway but I don't know what gear it had. Bigger engines don't need performance gears to make them get good mileage just because of the torque they produce at lower rpm. As for a spread bore...I HATE any SB from Holley!

 

[Satellite65]

If you're already yanking down those kind of numbers then you might want to consider leaving well enough alone. 20 mpg / 80 mph is pretty (very) good if you're really getting that. a TQ, or any 4bbl might give you slighty (again, very) better economy if you can keep your foot out of it but those extra cfm are kinda hard to resist! Injection's going to be sort of the same. You'll save a little fuel during cold starts and idling but any engine's going to need a certainb amount of fuel for a given load. Fuel injection's not going to change that.

At one time I seriously considered buildong my own system around the Megasquirt (mentioned by Meep-Meep) controller. I figured I could put together a pretty decent port efi setup for around $1600-$2000 using an Edelbrock manifold, throttle body and fuel rails. I decided to go with a Thermoquad instead as I have a lot of other stuff to do on the car and the money could be better speant elsewhere.

If you're into electronics the Megasquirt would be a real fun project as you build the computer yourself and bench test it using other 'kits' that go along with it. There are several different versions and you can configure it the way you like. It'll also control ignition systems. It's still not out of the question for me but that would be sometime down the road.

If you just want quick and easy injection look at the F.A.S.T. EZ EFI. It's a 4bbl TBI with a brain that self-tunes after you punch some variables into the hand held programmer. Not terribly expensive and most people have nothing but good things to say about it.

 

[64Belvedere]

There was a great article on this in Hot Rod this month. Yes it was based on a chevy but the difference between the carb and the efi was negligible. It worked out that you would have to put 110K miles on to completely pay off the efi conversion.

 

[Satellite65]

That depends on the cost of the conversion, your mileage before and after and the price of gasoline. I just did a little math.

Let's say you spend $2000.00 on the system (that's getting off cheap), it yields an additional 2 mpg's (very optimistic) and gas cost's $3.25/gallon (not here on Long Island!!).

The RTI would come in at 10,455 miles.

The $2K cost for the system would have purchased 615 gallons of gas @ $3.25/gallon.
The 2 mpg increase would yield an additional 1230 miles of driving with 615 gallons
If your car got 15 mpg's to begin with you could drive 9225 miles on 615 gallons.
If your car got 17 mpg's after the conversion with you could drive 10455 miles on 615 gallons.
the difference would be the 1230 miles.

My math may be a little off, but you get the idea.

If you're doing it because it's cool and offers some slight edge in driveability that's one thing but if you're doing it to save money you might be a little disappointed.

 

[Meep-Meep]

...and one pump, turn the key and it starts used to be a goal to be proud of.
Now- if that doesn't happen with EFI you've got a potential problem.

Exactly!

 

[Meep-Meep]

That depends on the cost of the conversion, your mileage before and after and the price of gasoline. I just did a little math.

Let's say you spend $2000.00 on the system (that's getting off cheap), it yields an additional 2 mpg's (very optimistic) and gas cost's $3.25/gallon (not here on Long Island!!).

The RTI would come in at 10,455 miles.

The $2K cost for the system would have purchased 615 gallons of gas @ $3.25/gallon.
The 2 mpg increase would yield an additional 1230 miles of driving with 615 gallons
If your car got 15 mpg's to begin with you could drive 9225 miles on 615 gallons.
If your car got 17 mpg's after the conversion with you could drive 10455 miles on 615 gallons.
the difference would be the 1230 miles.

My math may be a little off, but you get the idea.

If you're doing it because it's cool and offers some slight edge in driveability that's one thing but if you're doing it to save money you might be a little disappointed.

Excellent breakdown!

Another reason to use EFI is to cure the fuel distribution problems associated with the STR 14 and 15 and the Weiand cross ram tunnel ram thing, that is if you're into that sort of thing. I have both and often look at those and think hidden port injection!

 

[Satellite65]

Excellent breakdown!

Another reason to use EFI is to cure the fuel distribution problems associated with the STR 14 and 15 and the Weiand cross ram tunnel ram thing, that is if you're into that sort of thing. I have both and often look at those and think hidden port injection!

Didn't Chrysler engineers solve that problem with popsicle sticks and epoxy some time ago?

 

[5.7 hemi]

The hidden fuel injectors has been done and used 2 fast throttle bodies. I think it was in Mopar Muscle about 2 years ago (might be longer or shorter on the time period).

 

[YY1]

How about a 5.9 system, with injector bungs welded/tapped into a factory 2 BBL intake?

Electronic ignition and EFI are two tech advancements I do really like (along with disk brakes).
I got real tired of changing points and tuning/rebuilding carbs (and greasy, asbestos-y hands).

 

[moperformance]

Thanks to everybody!! The one really great thing about BB mopars is that changing from one intake to another takes longer to talk about it does to just do it.
"If you're into electronics the Megasquirt would be a real fun project as you build the computer yourself and bench test it using other 'kits' that go along with it. There are several different versions and you can configure it the way you like. It'll also control ignition systems."
There is another engineer that works here running a Megasquirt kit on his second gen Camaro and I like all of the options the system gives him.
One thing I haven't seen is putting sequencial efi on a pair of sonic ram intakes with throttle bodies on each one. I wonder if the "sonic pulses" would still apply?

 

[Satellite65]

"One thing I haven't seen is putting sequencial efi on a pair of sonic ram intakes with throttle bodies on each one. I wonder if the "sonic pulses" would still apply?"

I don't see why not. The sonic pulses would effect the airflow, the fuel would be injected right at the point of entry into the port. Might work very well!!!

Are you talking about the late '50s/early '60s long ram manifolds? That would be a cool setup to inject but I'd personally be a little nervous and question myself while drilling that first hole for the injector bungs. Those things are pretty rare.