Camshaft

[rumblefish360]

12:26 AM? Yeah go back to bed Bob. Giving a suggestion like that........'cause I read a book/saw on YouTube that....

WAIT!.........Sorry.......

How many hundreds of engines have you built? LOL!

Leave a link to your low compression builds.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

On a '67 HP with 915 heads, wouldn't the CR be around 11:1? That will make a big difference...especially on "pump gas".

A 67 440 uses a piston w a 2.00 compression height, typically around .080 down the deck. If it's using the original head gasket it should be about 9.5:1 but probably less.
If you put a 108 lsa in this engine with small duration you run the risk of not filling up at the local pump. Narrow Lsa cams have there place...but I wouldnt do it here. If you want to go with a modern assymetrical cam profile I think there could be some gains but plan on replacing valve springs.
The original cam should be 268/284. 115Lsa. .450/.458. If you want to compare grinds...its what should be in your car if its a 440 magnum.
Cams are trade offs. You give up one area to gain in another. That is just the way it is.

 

[Challenger340]

The 'tight' LSA problem. Many cam companies recommend wide LSA to save racers from themselves. Notice today how many more cams there are on 106-108 LSA compared to 25 yrs ago?? The message is sinking in.
Out of the big companies, on LSA, two 'got it' more than 50 yrs ago: Crower & Isky. There may have been some smaller companies. Most Isky street cams were on 108. Crower had a 440 street cam that was on 105. Yes 105. Mate had it in his Charger & loved it. # 206-HDP 230/244 @ 050, 105 LSA. The next size up, 205-HDP was also on 105 LSA.
The 440 had a unique 'problem' among the popular big blocks: a high R/S ratio [ long rod, short stroke ]. Great for 200 mph at Daytona, not good for street tq. That is why Mopar increased the rod length for the Hemi. A high ratio means there is less pull on the charge at lower rpms, which translated into English means using too much duration/overlap can turn it into a dog at low rpms. Cam grinder Sig Erson realised this & printed this warning in his cam catalog. NOTE: Only the BBM has this note, no other brands: ' ....with a TF transmission beware of too much duration. Although the longer duration cam will make more HP, the loss of low rpm tq will more than offset the gain at the top end & the ET will suffer'.
Sig knew his stuff, even back then: 'The camshaft with closer lobe centers will ALWAYS produce more power in the mid range than a cam using the same profile & wide lobe center, & in many application will produce more power through the range depending on many variables such as the induction system, rod angularity & flow capacity of the ports.'

Erson & Vizard worked together for a period of time.
Saying it one more time: use tight LSA & reduce duration for more low end. might mean a custom grind, but worth it.
If anyone wants copies of this info, PM me an email address.

No disrespect to Erson, Vizzard nor Chase Knight if undoubtedly that's who he worked with at CRANE during that period....
but I will disagree with the sub 110* LSA specific to a 1.81 Rod Ratio BB Mopar using 915 Cast Iron Head flow ratios with 2.08/1.74 valves and HP Manifolds.

The 'tight' LSA problem. Many cam companies recommend wide LSA to save racers from themselves. Notice today how many more cams there are on 106-108 LSA compared to 25 yrs ago?? The message is sinking in.
Out of the big companies, on LSA, two 'got it' more than 50 yrs ago: Crower & Isky. There may have been some smaller companies. Most Isky street cams were on 108. Crower had a 440 street cam that was on 105. Yes 105. Mate had it in his Charger & loved it. # 206-HDP 230/244 @ 050, 105 LSA. The next size up, 205-HDP was also on 105 LSA.
The 440 had a unique 'problem' among the popular big blocks: a high R/S ratio [ long rod, short stroke ]. Great for 200 mph at Daytona, not good for street tq. That is why Mopar increased the rod length for the Hemi. A high ratio means there is less pull on the charge at lower rpms, which translated into English means using too much duration/overlap can turn it into a dog at low rpms. Cam grinder Sig Erson realised this & printed this warning in his cam catalog. NOTE: Only the BBM has this note, no other brands: ' ....with a TF transmission beware of too much duration. Although the longer duration cam will make more HP, the loss of low rpm tq will more than offset the gain at the top end & the ET will suffer'.
Sig knew his stuff, even back then: 'The camshaft with closer lobe centers will ALWAYS produce more power in the mid range than a cam using the same profile & wide lobe center, & in many application will produce more power through the range depending on many variables such as the induction system, rod angularity & flow capacity of the ports.'

Erson & Vizard worked together for a period of time.
Saying it one more time: use tight LSA & reduce duration for more low end. might mean a custom grind, but worth it.
If anyone wants copies of this info, PM me an email address.

No disrespect to you, Sig, David, nor Chase Knight who undoubtedly worked with Vizzard at CRANE during that period if that's the case ?

I very simply just disagree with the tighter sub 110* LSA's on 220'ish @ 050 Lobes as beneficial to power averages across the usable rpm range..... specific to factory HP Exhaust Manifolds on a 1.80 Rod Ratio 1967 440 Engine using Cast Iron 915 Flow/2.08/1.74 scavenging ratios ?
Doesn't fit the longer TDC dwell time based in my experience.

But I'm pretty poorly read so Racing Book Editions is a moot point ?
IMO....
I think everyone should stick with recommending to others what has worked well for them in the past ?
Just say'in.... the tighter LSA's we tried haven't done us any favors with the Factory HP Manifolds ?
So I gotta stay with my experience Machining, Assembling, Porting/Flowing Heads and Dyno'ing the final BB Mopar products ....that being a wider 112*+ LSA and up for 220'ish @ .050 staggered favoring the Exhaust, when using the factory HP Exhaust Manifolds.

 

[Geoff 2]

I never mentioned Chase Knight & my only knowledge of him is that he worked for Crane.
Erson & Vizard's time together was in the 60s, time at Crane was 20-30 yrs later.
Anyone who thinks extra exh duration is an automatic requirement should read Isky's Tech Tip: Is extra exh duration necessary?
Many Jap & European engines use reverse pattern cams [ less exh duration; I have been using these in V8s for the last 20 yrs ] AND tight LSA. What is different to an American V8? Nothing. Pistons go up/down; air goes in/out. The wide LSA seems to be an American penchant but some very smart US engine builders [ apart from DV ] like Jon Kaase are going tight LSA. Real tight. Jon won the EMC contest with a 400 Ford, made 664 hp, with all the 'wrong' parts: short rods, rev pattern SFT cam, 98 LSA cam with 92 ICL [ not misprints ]. Contrary to another 'legend' that tight LSA cams go over a cliff, the engine lost a mere 11hp after peak over 500 rpm.
The British Morris Mini engine cams were ground on 107 LSA. Performance versions were on 102 & some were rev pattern. So tight LSA is nothing new. Vizard's 128 rule is a good approximation for LSA for the hotrodder, rather than just taking a guess from a catalog; while it was for SBC it was found to work well with parallel valve heads, works for 9.5-11:1 CR, NA; outside of these parameters, correction factors are used. 131.5 is used with staggered valve such as BBC. His computer program yields more accurate #s but cost $$. The 128 rule computes to 104 LSA for a 440. His books are full of cam comparisons to back up his tight LSA claims. Two examples, a 572 with 107 & 112 LSA cams; 107 made more hp everywhere, from 3250 to 6300; a 468 with similar 107 & 112 cams did the same.
LSA is just a number right? Well no it is not. Optimum air flow is achieved when the valves are at or near max lift. Having this timed correctly in regard to piston velocity/position is crucial. The LSA tells you this. A cam on 106 LSA with a 106 ICL tells you that the int valve is at max lift at 106 BTDC & that the exh valve is at max lift 106 ATDC.

 

[Challenger340]

I never mentioned Chase Knight & my only knowledge of him is that he worked for Crane.
Erson & Vizard's time together was in the 60s, time at Crane was 20-30 yrs later.
Anyone who thinks extra exh duration is an automatic requirement should read Isky's Tech Tip: Is extra exh duration necessary?
Many Jap & European engines use reverse pattern cams [ less exh duration; I have been using these in V8s for the last 20 yrs ] AND tight LSA. What is different to an American V8? Nothing. Pistons go up/down; air goes in/out. The wide LSA seems to be an American penchant but some very smart US engine builders [ apart from DV ] like Jon Kaase are going tight LSA. Real tight. Jon won the EMC contest with a 400 Ford, made 664 hp, with all the 'wrong' parts: short rods, rev pattern SFT cam, 98 LSA cam with 92 ICL [ not misprints ]. Contrary to another 'legend' that tight LSA cams go over a cliff, the engine lost a mere 11hp after peak over 500 rpm.
The British Morris Mini engine cams were ground on 107 LSA. Performance versions were on 102 & some were rev pattern. So tight LSA is nothing new. Vizard's 128 rule is a good approximation for LSA for the hotrodder, rather than just taking a guess from a catalog; while it was for SBC it was found to work well with parallel valve heads, works for 9.5-11:1 CR, NA; outside of these parameters, correction factors are used. 131.5 is used with staggered valve such as BBC. His computer program yields more accurate #s but cost $$. The 128 rule computes to 104 LSA for a 440. His books are full of cam comparisons to back up his tight LSA claims. Two examples, a 572 with 107 & 112 LSA cams; 107 made more hp everywhere, from 3250 to 6300; a 468 with similar 107 & 112 cams did the same.
LSA is just a number right? Well no it is not. Optimum air flow is achieved when the valves are at or near max lift. Having this timed correctly in regard to piston velocity/position is crucial. The LSA tells you this. A cam on 106 LSA with a 106 ICL tells you that the int valve is at max lift at 106 BTDC & that the exh valve is at max lift 106 ATDC.

No... you never mentioned Chase Knight... I did ?

I don't believe we're understanding each other here ?
I've used.... and I continue to use same as many others here.... and Dyno the results.... PLENTY of tight LSA profiles in many applications ?
And YES....
I also use/spec'd many shorter Exhaust than Intake profiles to pressure serious Turbo efforts/applications harder ?
Thx for the 'lesson'.... but you really aren't posting anything about LSA that many of us here don't already know or have machined/built/dyno'd ?

However...
and relative to the intent and subject matter of this thread... and the OP's original question about a relatively mild Camshaft for a completely stock 1967 BB Mopar 1.8 Rod Ratio, Closed Chamber 2.08/1.74 Valved Cast Iron Headed 440 Engine that is probably using factory HP Exhaust Manifolds/very restrictive Exhaust ?
again here...
IMO,
I believe the OP's question is best served if we stick with LSA Cam Recommendations that many have tried/tested/dyno'd relative to the OP's application ???????

 

[Geoff 2]

'Tried & tested.' You mean like a crank handle? Thank goodness some people thought outside the square, otherwise we would still be use crank handles to start engines.
DV claims he has tested over 19,000 cam combinations & done 1/2 million dyno pulls. His resume is impressive, consultant to OEMs, F1 etc & much much more.
He says this in his BBC book, S-A books #311, PAGE 97, & the OP should note: " If maximising power & torque are the goal, SPREADING THE LCA [ LSA ] TO IMPROVE IDLE & LOW SPEED DRIVABILITY IS A VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE MOVE. THE CORRECT ANSWER HERE IS TO NOT SPREAD THE LCA, BUT TO GO FOR LESS DURATION."
When I find someone that has more cam tests than DV, I will believe them.

 

[Challenger340]

"Bench Racing" Book Volumes....
Why do you keep leaving out "Dyno'd" with 'tried/tested' ?

'Tried & tested.' You mean like a crank handle? Thank goodness some people thought outside the square, otherwise we would still be use crank handles to start engines.
DV claims he has tested over 19,000 cam combinations & done 1/2 million dyno pulls. His resume is impressive, consultant to OEMs, F1 etc & much much more.
He says this in his BBC book, S-A books #311, PAGE 97, & the OP should note: " If maximising power & torque are the goal, SPREADING THE LCA [ LSA ] TO IMPROVE IDLE & LOW SPEED DRIVABILITY IS A VERY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE MOVE. THE CORRECT ANSWER HERE IS TO NOT SPREAD THE LCA, BUT TO GO FOR LESS DURATION."
When I find someone that has more cam tests than DV, I will believe them.

You believe whatever you have read as you see fit OK ?
Free Country !
NO mileage for me trying to convince you of anything..... and I have no time to Bench Race Book Volumes/Authors.
Thanks so much for the Book review.

But until this is strictly a Book Club Forum ?
Then I believe it may still be beneficial..... to allow others to relate their own personal real world experience based Machining/Assembling and Dyno Testing Engines/Camshafts ?
'Dissenting opinions' if you will ?
Free Country ?

Question:
How many Camshafts have you personally Dyno tested in BB Mopars ?

 

[m79ded]

New to the Mopar world, looking to possibly install an improved camshaft for my stock 67 GTX 440 4spd, 3:54 gears. Id like a nice medium lope and no loss of low end power
Suggestions and combos welcome

Go with Howards Mopar grind 224-234 112 LSA It works well with great street manners, Tried and tested or a bit bigger Crower 228 -236 112 LSA. Easy Peazy, You're not racing Dynos your a street car You'll be happy with either of these

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Both nice cams, but the lift on both will get the op in trouble if everything is stock...more so w the howards.
I wish stamped steel could run .540 lift and survive.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

It's not very complicated, a camshaft in this general range will work well in your application.

.470 - .500" lift, 225-235* duration @ .050, and 110-112 LSA.

 

[Wietse]

Perhaps consider the below cam from Hughes engines, it says for 6-packs and 440's with exhaust manifolds.
220/226 @ 110 LSA.
Keep in mind you need to run their recommended valve springs.

https://www.hughesengines.com/Index...RmxhdCBUYXBwZXQsIEh5ZHJhdWxpYw==&partid=32342