Don't swap in a modern engine or efi for driveability

[Brewzer67]

Interesting thread. I have been following the switchover to EFI or new engine/driveline swaps for a while. It has largely been black or white from most peoples perspective but I think it is getting a little grayer as people see more of the new transplants working. There also is a larger availability of modern tech at less than brand new prices (i.e. Junkyard offerings). The way I see it, you can upgrade to all new tech and get the advantages, but you also get the downfalls of doing so (harder to diagnose issues and a greater dependency on tools most don't have access to). Or you can stay with old tech and deal with new problem we see largely from new gas or poorly set up electrical systems. If you don't make sure you have great electrical and clean power your MSD boxes, ECU's etc are going to keep failing you. New cars have this figured out so they don't have these issues anywhere near as much. Most of the drivability issues people have with the old tech have to do with a fuels system not set up to deal with new gas. If you run a return line system with an in-tank pump and insulate your gas lines in the right places, you can start up a carbed car and drive it wherever and whenever you want. I live in Wisconsin and have a 526" w/ported TrickFlow 270's, a .715 Solid roller ([email protected]) and it will start with 3 pumps every time and idle off on it's own in 30 seconds or less no matter what the temp (started at a lowest of 35 Fahrenheit so far). Invest in a good AFR meter and tuning it becomes a whole lot easier. If better management of timing is an issue, get a Progressive Ignitions distributor and you can have vacuum advance and fine tune your timing curves to be more inline with modern cars (and switch it in 30 seconds to a drag strip tune). Need an overdrive, they are out there. My Gear Vendor unit let's me drive with 4.30"s on the freeway at 70 mph and still get almost 14mpg. It really isn't about old versus new, it's about using the technologies available that can make old livable for you, or spending a bunch of money to switch over to modern to get the same. If you have to do a major redo, it may make sense to switch to modern as the whole package has already been figured out, but for most of us we can get to a great compromise in baby steps and still have that near modern experience. It all depends on what level of troubleshooting you want to do, how much you want to spend, and how much frustration you can deal with at a time.

 

[Cojohnso1]

You might be right. But I'm not good with "Baby Steps." My "Tool Time." brain gets into the way. With. "If I'm going to try that? Then why not go for more performance?"

It's a childhood infliction. My poor banana seat Schwinn had more upgrades than my grand dad's dentures!

 

[JG71B]

If I drove my 71 all day everyday, I wouldve left that 5.7 in it last winter ( Id still be scrounging to pay for it!). I get 4-5 good months of nice weather where I am so I might see a couple thousand miles if that. I have plans again, to do a hemi convert in the future. As I wait things are getting less complicated and cheaper

 

[Challenger340]

I read your post and I still say drive an old car with the new stuff not a new stuff car !
It’s not that same. You can’t compare a 5.3 Silverado work truck to a 67-81 camaro for example with an ls swap

Oh and also dont ride in one, go actually drive one. Sit in the drivers seat and drive it

Like I've stated TWICE now....
I HAVE DRIVEN plenty of the new stuff ? even a 2017 Charger SRT 392....
and I have reciprocated by letting those owners drive my old R/T ?

Different Cars... Different Genre.... but from a 'reliability/driveability' perspective we all agree both are just fine.

and BTW....
maybe it's YOU that have NO CLUE and can't judge from "experience" ?

Because I'm curious what UN-Restored/UN-Rebuilt '69 R/T survivor you are DRIVING to compare with ?

 

[70-74 Cuda]

My 69 mustang has fuel injection and my 74 cuda turnt into a 71 cuda clone has a 5.7 hemi in it. My 68 charger is still carb because most people didn't want me to do another fuel injection swap. Honestly i just suck with carbs so i go the fuel injection route. Easier for me plus better mpg. I also suck with drum brakes so all my cars have 4 wheel disc brake.

 

[747mopar]

My 69 mustang has fuel injection and my 74 cuda turnt into a 71 cuda clone has a 5.7 hemi in it. My 68 charger is still carb because most people didn't want me to do another fuel injection swap. Honestly i just suck with carbs so i go the fuel injection route. Easier for me plus better mpg. I also suck with drum brakes so all my cars have 4 wheel disc brake.

Suck with drum brakes, you do know they're pretty darn simple don't you? Disc are better anyways, plan on eventually swapping the rears on mine.

 

[70-74 Cuda]

Suck with drum brakes, you do know they're pretty darn simple don't you? Disc are better anyways, plan on eventually swapping the rears on mine.

Yea i didn't grow up with these cars and drum brakes just annoy me

 

[Purepony]

Like I've stated TWICE now....
I HAVE DRIVEN plenty of the new stuff ? even a 2017 Charger SRT 392....
and I have reciprocated by letting those owners drive my old R/T ?

Different Cars... Different Genre.... but from a 'reliability/driveability' perspective we all agree both are just fine.

and BTW....
maybe it's YOU that have NO CLUE and can't judge from "experience" ?

Because I'm curious what UN-Restored/UN-Rebuilt '69 R/T survivor you are DRIVING to compare with ?

I drove an unrestored 69 camaro numbers matching car for a while

I drove a 1968 charger with a 440 that was stock with a 70k price tag back in 2010-11

The difference between you and I is that I’m not the one making a thread saying “
Don't swap in a modern engine or efi for driveability”
(Direct order)

I never said the old stuff was bad, I never said the new stuff ruled, vice Versa.

You drove a 5.3 ls with iron heads to the mall to buy a wide brim straw hat and that gives you the authority on modern day swaps ? What to do and what not to do? I’m surprised you didn’t do a you tube video

Like I’ve said it before.

DO: Drive a 60-79 mopar car WITH a modern hemi 5.7, 6.1, 6.4 hellephant etc and then say what you will.

DONT: drive a 2004-2022 mopar or 2000-2014 Gm product of any kind with a hemi or ls and assume it’s the same thing.

 

[Challenger340]

I drove an unrestored 69 camaro numbers matching car for a while


The difference between you and I is that I’m not the one making a thread saying “
Don't swap in a modern engine or efi for driveability”
(Direct order)

LOOK you twit.... LEARN TO READ maybe ?

Do you have DYSLEXIA ?

I did NOT START nor "MAKE a thread" ?
I merely made a post in this "thread" of my opinion in agreement with the OP ?

And just what part of dropping any modern engine into a 60-79 Mopar still using 60-79 Mopar suspension/support systems/amenities is still a 60-79 Mopar to DRIVE don't you get ?
Torsion Bars/Leaf Springs/Drum Brakes and on and on.....
It's still a 60-79 Mopar with 500/600 Ft/Lbs Torque or whatever ? whether it has a 440 or a Modern Engine now isn't it ?
READ....
At least the factory R/T Cars had the heavier/better handling S15 Suspension Pkgs....
hence why so many have problems dropping even mild 440's etc into the originally /6, 318 and 383 2 BBL Cars then wondering why it's like riding on a drunken elephant ?

 

[threewood]

Another thing i did not mention in the first post is that from time to time i see people saying the modern cars are more comfortable than the old ones.
I could not disagree more. I bet my 72 cutlass is way more comfortable than a new rolls royce!
At least an old imperial, cadillac or lincoln is for sure!

Totally agree here. New cars seats are uncomfortable to me. My 62 Belvedere has a bench seat that is like sitting on a sofa. I can drive it for hours without getting uncomfortable. New car seats? They make my back hurt.

 

[Charger 770]

Threads like this are kool !

As usual what parts you use will be dictated by your application.

Carbs are no different to EFI from a learning perspective - your STILL have to learn how to dial either system in depending on what it is you're using. This is the caveat - many are not willing to take the time to learn HOW to dial in either of these induction systems.

Both systems have their pros and cons but either one will require learning if you're the one doing the tuning. The scope of what you can do with REAL EFI /ECUs is great like cyl to cyl tuning, timing control, fan control, nitrous control, traction control, etc but I don't need any of that atm so what I have works really well. As someone mentioned, simplicity is a big one for me right now, complexity and troubleshooting/EMI can really suck on aftermarket EFI. In addition EFI normally won't make more HP/TQ than well dialled in carbs, so its a lot of $$$ to spend on a system unless you really need the above features.

If I can get a 1200 Dominator and a pair of Eddy 800s to start easily, idle super clean, transition nice, cruise in the high 14s and WOT in the mid 12s....anyone can. This is with a [email protected], .750 lift solid roller with single plane intakes.

Patience to learn what your engine likes is the key. Either way a single or dual wideband is your friend here.

Drivetrain wise it would be nice to have a Gen 3 in my future in a Mopar but not because its THAT much better a platform than LA or B/RB/Hemi engines. Parts avail and co$t, aftermarket support, less weight, better sealing and less need for exotic parts to make decent HP/TQ would be key reasons for me to swap.

Trans wise is where the biggest change in making the car way more usable would come from for me. I'd love to swap to a 8HP90 and run 3.23 or 3.00 gears with a 30" rear tire. Or even a built NAG1. Using the software conversion and the Hellcat/OEM shifter....I can rip thru the gears and have double overdrive on the highway. Best of both worlds.

Roll on ......

 

[INTMD8]

I have a 59 Cadillac with points, original carb. Runs great. Just takes a while to start if it's been sitting more than a few days.

Had a stock 68 383 charger that ran great as well.

Great, but still not quite as great as a dialed in EFI setup as far as cold start and cold driveability.

Switching from carbs to efi on my 69 Charger but keeping the gen 2 hemi. That decision was mostly based on not wanting to tune carbs on E85 and deal with varying percentages of alcohol. (and I will like not having a distributor as well)

Agreed that a newer engine or efi is not necessary to have an excellent running vehicle but I don't see anything wrong with going that route if one desires either.

 

[Dennis H]

Take the 59 Caddy to Hot August Nights in Reno this week and let us know how it went. 5k feet and 100 degrees could alter performance.

 

[WileERobby]

I say, to each his own. Me ? I like my classic muscle the way they are, I like my modern muscle for what it is. It's like milk and whiskey. Why would I put milk in a whiskey bottle, just so it goes down easy ? The experience of each is unique, I wouldn't want to mix.

 

[INTMD8]

^ Sure, that's another good reason for efi, not having to adjust for altitude.

I wouldn't be all that concerned about driving it there. Not driven it at 5k feet but have driven it for several hundred mile trips in mid 90's weather.

 

[Fullthrottle303]

I like my old cars old. Sure the new stuff is good too. I am tired of orange boxes that fail, chrome boxes that fail, MSDs that fail and Fitechs that have to be sent back though. Oh and I've been without a radio/screen in my 18 Ram 5 weeks so far after Fiat/Peugot/whoever updated and killed it. No sign when they are going to send me a new one, imagine how fun that will be when this modern stuff is 20 years old.
Want to pull the most beautiful dash ever put in a car out of your 68-70 Charger and "update" it with new stuff? Fine, just don't expect me to want to look at it. New engines are ugly as f+(& too, I won't be looking at those either and give me torsion bars every time.
But that's how I enjoy these cars and other people enjoy their cars in their own way too. Don't build your car for someone else. I have installed injection in old cars and probably will inject my next one. If I want OD though I can either use a manual A833 or in the case of an automatic use a 2.94 or 2.76 suregrip and build a 500 inch engine that will work with it and a 727, it isn't that hard.

I just finished that fiasco with my 2014 Cummins. Amazing truck in every way until that update crashed my Infotainment system. I sent it back to them to be refurbished for $350 and put the truck up for sale. Bought a 99 Cummins with blue and red knobs for the heat and rebuilt everything on it for $6k. I put a Holley Sniper on my daily driver GTX and one on my 70 Bronco and both have been reliable for 9 months, I didn't drive the Bronco much this year though. At 5200 feet elevation and temperatures that range from -10 to 110 degrees in Colorado, combined with the terrible fuel we have now days any one who says a carb runs just as well as efi is delusional or doesn't drive their car much. I install and tune carbs on customer's Harley's regularly but my cars will keep getting fuel injection. OD and a lock up converter would be amazing, I just can't bring myself to cut up my GTX for it.

 

[Fullthrottle303]

I think I would like to try injection like sniper on my belvedere engine. I agree with runcharger in that newer engines look kinda ***. I like the look of chrome and black finned valve covers etc.

My carbureted car starts and runs fine but I have to admit that it would be nice to come home from a night of street racing and hanging with the boys without smelling like gas and fumes, to the point where I have to go shower or my wife won’t let me in bed. Lol

A huge negative of a carb for me is the bleed back and evaporation of fuel if it sits more than 5 or 6 days and all the damn cranking or a manual prime required to get it going. That’s part sucks sheet…

This baby with EFI would be the bomb!
View attachment 1140360

That's exactly why I installed a Sniper on my GTX. Every once in a while I would grab the GTX keys then put em back and grab a different set because I just didn't want to take a little extra time to pump the throttle, let it warm up for 20 seconds, or possibly have it breaking up a 1/2 mile from my stop because it was vapor locking a little. None of those things are a big deal and depending on the weather might not be an issue that day, but since the efi I never second guess that set of keys. And I have quite a few to choose from.

 

[Fullthrottle303]

I'm at a cross road right now with the T-56 Magnum vs a Gear Vendors unit on an 833. The GV is 3 grand! I already have an 833 but it looks like it came out of a creek bed but the insides look nice. Still plan on rebuilding it if I'm going to use it but.....I know there's going to me floor clearance issues with the 56. Gotta win the lottery. Dangit

I'd love to drive a car with a GV unit, but until then no lockup converter makes it a no-go for me. Is converter slippage not an issue with the GV?

 

[HawkRod]

I'd love to drive a car with a GV unit, but until then no lockup converter makes it a no-go for me. Is converter slippage not an issue with the GV?

Not sure what your question is. I have a GV on my 73 Road Runner with a 727 and no lockup torque converter in the tranny (and a GV unit does not have a torque converter). The GV unit could care less about the torque converter. The same unit sits behind manual cars with no torque converter at all. So lockup or not makes no difference.

 

[Fullthrottle303]

Not sure what your question is. I have a GV on my 73 Road Runner with a 727 and no lockup torque converter in the tranny (and a GV unit does not have a torque converter). The GV unit could care less about the torque converter. The same unit sits behind manual cars with no torque converter at all. So lockup or not makes no difference.

It drastically decreases the rpm's you're running down the interstate. This keeps you below stall speed on your converter, therefore it is slipping as you're driving. This is the reason for lockup converters.