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For those that turn corners....Whats your setup?

Same height tires?
I really don't have more room up front to increase tire height, and to decrease rear to match the front would result in LESS traction. I actually need stickier rear tires as I am now. The car can blow off the tires through 2nd and into 3rd gear with a 295-45 tire. It handles pretty neutral as is, but it has a little more roll than I'd prefer. I wasn't aware that Hotchkiss made an 1 3/8 front bar. Is is solid or tubular? I've read that the tubular bar is about 90% as effective as a solid. Do you remember the price you paid for the front sway bar? My future changes include a larger front bar, a 3/4" bar I have in the attic and a set of Bilstien shocks. HOW do you pronounce that name anyway? Bill-steen or Bill stine?
 
I bought the Hotchkis front sway direct from them and paid the website list price. Right now that web price is $337, which is pricey, but they make top notch products. Theirs is a hollow bar, as are the tubular sub-frame connectors I bought from Global West.

A hollow bar of the same outer diameter as a solid bar is actually stronger in flexing, which is nice because you get weight reduction along with increased strength. This higher strength is due to the hoop strength of the tube as the stress propagates from the outer diameter inward and is something I learned in Materials Engineering school. It seems counter-intuitive I know. As the stress travels from the O.D. to the I.D. of the rod, it hits that cylindrical I.D. and is distributed around the circumference. If it were a solid rod, the stress continues to travel towards the center of the rod and if the load is high enough it rips through the rod and causes it to bend or fail.

If you can stomach the high price, Hotchkis is a good way to go. Since I bought the frame hung rear sway from Firm Feel, the Firm Feel front sway bar would be my 2nd choice.
 
A hollow bar of the same outer diameter as a solid bar is actually stronger in flexing, which is nice because you get weight reduction along with increased strength. This higher strength is due to the hoop strength of the tube as the stress propagates from the outer diameter inward and is something I learned in Materials Engineering school. It seems counter-intuitive I know. As the stress travels from the O.D. to the I.D. of the rod, it hits that cylindrical I.D. and is distributed around the circumference. If it were a solid rod, the stress continues to travel towards the center of the rod and if the load is high enough it rips through the rod and causes it to bend or fail.
QUOTE]

It DOES seem counter intuitive. I have a hard time believing it. If it is true, why have most OEMs used heavier, solid bars since the beginning?
 
The Mopar hobby really seems to be segmented. There are the guys that wipe their cars with diapers and sit in lawn chairs at shows discussing factory chalk marks, paint runs and fender tags. There are the drag racers with gutted interiors, pizza cutter front tires and fuel cells in the trunk. The road course and autocross guys discuss slip angles, alignment settings and chassis stiffening modifications. I really don't fit perfectly in any of those groups. I have a shiny car that is fast and can corner well. My car isn't a real R/T so I'm not as nervous driving it as I could be. I was just hoping that other members here had similar interests.


I drive My car in western NY and average about 5000 miles a year. I take it to the wilson farms, plaza,cruises and occasional shows. I'm an original straight line cruiser and could care less about road courses or having a trailer queen. It's meant to have fun with.....not become a money pit or making it what it's not
 
I'm an original straight line cruiser and could care less about road courses or having a trailer queen. It's meant to have fun with.....not become a money pit or making it what it's not

Just chiming in here or pointing fingers?
Making it what its not?
This thread was started to see who here is interested in making their cars handle. Our cars have immense potential to turn corners with as much success as we have had in the straight line. That isn't a matter of making the car what it isn't, it is maximizing what Ma Mopar engineered in.
You enjoy your car the way that you want. Sounds good to me.
 
A hollow bar of the same outer diameter as a solid bar is actually stronger in flexing, which is nice because you get weight reduction along with increased strength. This higher strength is due to the hoop strength of the tube as the stress propagates from the outer diameter inward and is something I learned in Materials Engineering school. It seems counter-intuitive I know. As the stress travels from the O.D. to the I.D. of the rod, it hits that cylindrical I.D. and is distributed around the circumference. If it were a solid rod, the stress continues to travel towards the center of the rod and if the load is high enough it rips through the rod and causes it to bend or fail.
QUOTE]

It DOES seem counter intuitive. I have a hard time believing it. If it is true, why have most OEMs used heavier, solid bars since the beginning?

Not sure, maybe cost of manufacturing? However, all of the aftermarket high end sway bars are hollow. My tubular subframe connectors are also hollow.
 
Hi Greg,
will 275 fit under stock front end of charger i have a 68 charger and thought biggest could go was 255. what backspace do you have on those front rims?
i was thinging of going 17x8 245/3017 and 18x10 295/4018 rears.
 
I have the 275-40-18 in there with room to spare. The 18x9 wheel has 5" of backspacing. A little more NEG camber helps the tire clear the top of the fender wheel opening. I DO rub the tire against the frame rail on full left and right, but the tire contacts a smoothe spot, so no tire damage happens. I was careful to measure before I bought these wheels. TOO pricey to just order what "looks" pretty!!
 
68 Sport Satellite: We met today at the Mopar Alley show. I was seelling in the swap meet. My buddy had that disc brake Dana on the jackstands! I told you my FABO name was Frankenduster.....Small world, huh?

I forgot to mention that I run a Firm Feel stage 3 steering chuck with fast ratio idler and pitman arms. Steering went from 3 1/2 turns down to 2 5/8 lock to lock. Steering effort and feel is great.
Hellwigs 1 3/8" hollow front sway bar is for PRE 1970 cars. Mine is a 70 which has the bar routed through the k member. Firm Feel makes a 1 1/4" front bar, but it is a little spendy. I'm tempted to just fab up another GM truck 1 1/4 bar though. I can buy one and have it ready to install for less that $75. Maybe I'll make a few to sell at swap meets! The 1 1/8" to 1 1/4" doesn't sound like much of a change in size, but it is 11%. That may be enough to make the 3/4" rear bar necessary.
 
68 Sport Satellite: We met today at the Mopar Alley show. I was seelling in the swap meet. My buddy had that disc brake Dana on the jackstands! I told you my FABO name was Frankenduster.....Small world, huh?

I forgot to mention that I run a Firm Feel stage 3 steering chuck with fast ratio idler and pitman arms. Steering went from 3 1/2 turns down to 2 5/8 lock to lock. Steering effort and feel is great.
Hellwigs 1 3/8" hollow front sway bar is for PRE 1970 cars. Mine is a 70 which has the bar routed through the k member. Firm Feel makes a 1 1/4" front bar, but it is a little spendy. I'm tempted to just fab up another GM truck 1 1/4 bar though. I can buy one and have it ready to install for less that $75. Maybe I'll make a few to sell at swap meets! The 1 1/8" to 1 1/4" doesn't sound like much of a change in size, but it is 11%. That may be enough to make the 3/4" rear bar necessary.

Hey Greg I was there over with meep meep and his 66charger but I dont think we met. Don't recall frankenduster. I think there is someone else with similar handle.
Good point on the 70. I didn't know you were restricted to smaller front sway. From my experience you will likely benefit from a rear sway bar.
I was not going with fast ratio pitman since they won't fit my motor with headers but I recently decided to go with hp manifolds so now they should fit. Can't wait for that change.
Doesn't the stage 3 steering feel a bit heavy? I have stage 2and was thinking about going back to stage 1 cop feel which is still firmer than stock. Or, as someone else on here said I just need to put my foot into it and drive faster!
 
I really LIKE the steering feel. It could best be described as power assisted steering.
 
Hey gents I had an interesting handling experience with my 70 RR this weekend. I installed Magnum Force dropped front spindles and Wilwood 11" discs (another story). My car is all loaded up with Firm Feel front suspension and steering gear, sway bars, etc. I'm another "handling guy" on here. I'm not racing anyone (yet), I just like the engineering challenge of seeing how well I can make the car handle.

ANYWAY, after the install I noticed that the camber on the front wheels was off. Toe and Caster seemed to be ok, so I took the car for a drive with what I would guess was 5+ degrees of negative camber. I use negative to mean the tires were "leaning in" - weight on the inside of the tire - tops of the tires closer together than the bottoms - which I think is the proper usage of the term Negative Camber.

HOLY COW the car drives like it's on rails. Like a slot car! All of a sudden I could just point the front end into a corner and steer with the gas pedal. It really felt good. Nonetheless I went to the alignment shop - one that specializes in muscle cars and other hot-rodded stuff - because as an engineer I can't stand stuff that's "wrong" - wheels out of camber. I spent an hour yakking with the owner and he mentioned that a lot of the rice burner road racers intentionally have their wheels aligned that way - lots of negative camber. As it turns out, as the car rises up on the suspension in a corner - particularly on the inside, the effect on the suspension is to cause the tires to level on the ground, INCREASING traction in a condition which would normally decrease it.

Apparently it's an old NASCAR type trick too, an easy fix for a car that always turns one direction. I actually learned something about handling which was evident in the actual behavior of the car. Pretty cool.
 
I like cars to perform well under many different conditions

The Mopar hobby really seems to be segmented. There are the guys that wipe their cars with diapers and sit in lawn chairs at shows discussing factory chalk marks, paint runs and fender tags. There are the drag racers with gutted interiors, pizza cutter front tires and fuel cells in the trunk. The road course and autocross guys discuss slip angles, alignment settings and chassis stiffening modifications. I really don't fit perfectly in any of those groups. I have a shiny car that is fast and can corner well. My car isn't a real R/T so I'm not as nervous driving it as I could be. I was just hoping that other members here had similar interests.
:iamwithstupid:
I'm really not a show car guy at all, I like to see them just not really my thing thou... I live in the sticks kind of & allot of curvy roads here... I personally like my cars to do well in corners, going up hills & down steep grades also, then stop well & do well on 1/4 mile blasts {with proper parts or adjustments}, or just stop-lite to stop-lite, messing with rice rockets or even run down the freeway if needed {little as possible}... I too don't like to be put in one specific group or another either, most my experience is in Drag Racing, but I also have done some Autocross & Sprint Car or amateur cart & road racing some too... IMHFO the Mopar torsion bar front suspension isn't the best for cornering {tend to push/understeer allot}, the Mopar's uni-body chassis needs some serious stiffening & a minimum of sub-frame connectors, front & rear torque boxes, better engine & trans mounts, that don't easily separate/break under cornering & torque stresses etc. {or solid mounts, not fun on a street car thou}... I've had a few Mopars with low ride height {low center of gravity} with wide sticky tires {usually Comp TA's} mostly all B-bodies, 68-70 Chargers & 68-70 RR's {never been a big fan of "too big of hoops/rims" on these cars, but 17's & 18's are good thou, I like a little sidewall for some comfort in the ride}, had tubular K members {great for better oil pan & header fits, stiffening & lightening the front of the car, much better balance}, tubular control arms {Uppers & Lowers}, O/S 1-3/8" front & 1" rear adj. sway bars, {even just poly CA bushings, can make a world of a difference}, adjustable/tunable gas or coil over shocks, bigger better than stock disc brakes, preferably drilled & slotted rotors, better than stock style 4-6 puck calipers, better SS Teflon lined hoses, better than stock M/C & adjustable rear brake proportioning valve... Ten seat that have upper & lower bolsters & good belts, that will actually hold you in the seat much better, of course a great responsive engine, well shifting transmission {auto or manual}, lighten the car where ever possible, without changing it's overall appearances or body lines, hood, bumpers, etc., then also lighten all reciprocating weight, like driveshaft, crankshaft, wheels & tires, trans parts, lastly a really good fuel system, with adequate sized fuel supply & return to keep fuel cool... I've used Capps Automotive now QA1, Ron Jenkins stuff from Magnum Force Racing, some from PST, some from Hotchkiss, some from Uni-steer some from Flaming River, among many other brands, way too many to list.... I'm going to try some new stuff this time around too, specifically better far more adjustable {on the car} upper control arms & possibly shocks, might even go to a 4 bar/4 link w/watts linkage, coil overs set up on the rear, instead of CalTracs/leafs this time "maybe" too... Last keep as much air out from under the car as possible... I personally don't care what the purist think at all, I build my car for me & not for anyone else, I like to pay homage to the original cars & great body styles thou too, sometimes mix the best of multiple years in a car/project, I can always unbolt stuff & put it back to completely stock too, if I had the whimsy overcome me to have to do so... If the purists happen to like it "great", if they don't I don't really care either, just like most car guys, I would like everyone to like or respect my car & give me the universal thumbs up too, but you can't please everyone, all the time... RSM, XV Motorsports, Mopar performance, Ride-tech, QA1, PST, Hotchkiss, Magnum Force Racing, even the old Capps Automotive stuff... all good stuff for handling improvement, all have pros & cons I'm sure, mostly all about high cost usually.... sorry for the long convoluted post & punctuation...
 

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225/70 14's front. 295/55 15's rear. Hotchkiss tuned Bilsteins. PST UCA's. USCartool subframe connectors, Coopers, Firm Feel stage 1, feels as good at 100 as 70. Lots of warning before disaster. Momo Johnny Player Special steering wheel and late model seats help the ergo. 11' Hemis drums by praysdino. Tuning by John Cross. Allignment by Fred at 5 Points tire in Redwood City.
 
The Mopar hobby really seems to be segmented. There are the guys that wipe their cars with diapers and sit in lawn chairs at shows discussing factory chalk marks, paint runs and fender tags. There are the drag racers with gutted interiors, pizza cutter front tires and fuel cells in the trunk. The road course and autocross guys discuss slip angles, alignment settings and chassis stiffening modifications. I really don't fit perfectly in any of those groups. I have a shiny car that is fast and can corner well. My car isn't a real R/T so I'm not as nervous driving it as I could be. I was just hoping that other members here had similar interests.

What you said! :)
 
Really liking this thread so far and your Charger is gorgeous! Mine is still very much "in the works" so I'm basically just focusing on getting it back on the road before I start really modifying things.

But so far I have the stock front swaybar with poly endlinks, stock heavy duty torsion bars and leaves, QA1 single adjustable stocker star shocks, all new bushings with some rubber and some urethane, front brakes off a '70 Hemi Challenger (large single piston calipers, "big bearing" spindles), and 17x8" front and 18x9.5" rear wheels with nitto NT-555 tires. As soon as it's driveable I plan on going with a hellwig rear swaybar, subframe connectors, rear disc conversion (already have an adjustable proportioning valve looking ahead to rear discs), and possibly some other chassis stiffening stuff (inner fender braces, engine bay brace, torque boxes, etc)

And don't let the purists rain on the parade, my car is a numbers-matching R/T SE and I don't lose a wink of sleep at night over any of my modifications. It's my car and I'm doing what I love, and building it exactly how I want. Anything is better than them just rotting away in some field somewhere anyway
:eek:ccasion14:
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Wow.. I forgot about this thread! I last posted in the Summer of last year.
Since then I changed the front sway bar to a modified 1.25 bar from a GM 3/4 ton 2wd truck. After a 1000 mile road trip in April, I went underneath to look for the cause of a clunk I started hearing. It turns out that the lower control arm bushings were failing after 8000 miles! I decided that this was THE time to make a couple of other changes. I replaced the stock K member with another. The replacement was also a 1970 unit, but I had welded up all of the seams and added gussets to the steering box mounts. I also welded in a small deflector for oil pan protection. Also, i added the Moog offset bushings in the upper control arms to achieve more Caster. I had the car aligned to numbers that were not possible before: 1/2 degree NEG camber, 1/8" toe in and 5 degrees of POS Caster.
What a difference! It has always handled well, but now it feels less twitchy and more stable at speed.
Currently the car is immobile until I finish the cam degree & oil pan swap.
 
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Man, I just remembered a few more things.
In the Spring of this year, I actually got around to moving the battery to the RH corner of the trunk. I used a battery box from a A-100 van and wired everything through a Ford starter solenoid. This makes the 1/0 starter cable dead except when I am cranking the engine. I rewired the engine bay with a new harness from Evans. I also replaced the headlight harness.
While I had the K member out, I went back to stock leaf spring hangers. The ones I was using for several years were Super Stock units. When I first bought them, I drilled holes higher up to put the springs up in the body more. For years I have had tire clearance problems. Also, when I added the Gear Vendors Overdrive, I've had a vibration that I couldn't find. I think that the odd spring mounting gave me a weird pinion angle because the vibration went away when I swapped in the stock hangers. Problem is, while they moved the spring eyes down, (Resulting in a ride height increase) they also moved the eyes forward about 1 1/4". Now the tire clearance to the leading edge of the wheelwell is really close. I have a few sets of spring hangers here that I can try. A few of them have the spring eye mounting hole a bit further back. A shift of 1/2 to 3/4 inch would make a big difference.
I love this stuff. The car is like a big toy that I can take apart and change things...Sorta like a "Mr Potato Head" Charger.
 
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