For those that turn corners....Whats your setup?

[Kern Dog]

I know... Mopars are supposed to be great cars for the 1/8 mile, the 1/4 mile... Some even remember some luck they had on super speedways....:headbang:

I'm new to the site but not to the cars. I bought my Charger in March of 2000 and knew that I wanted a car that emphasized cornering/handling over straight line performance. I went with 1" MP torsion bars, a full poly front suspension rebuild, a 1 1/8" front sway bar and KYB shocks. I made my own frame connectors out of 3x3 .120 wall tubing and also installed factory appearing torque boxes. The rear has MP HD leaf springs ,(2 RH ) poly shackle bushings, KYB shocks. I have discs on each corner. Some tease me about the wheels, but I went with 18x9 front, 18x10 rear Intro Twisted Vista rims. 275-40 front, 295-45 rear Nitto 555 tires.
I've been making changes along the way. I had a 7/8" rear sway bar, but the car had a heavy tendency toward oversteer. The 493 and tight Power Lock SG 4.10 diff also conspired to the car wanting to wag its tail. I pulled the rear bar and the car handles more neutral, but theres still more to sort out. I may switch to the new Hellwig 1 3/8" hollow front sway bar that I have been hearing about. I have a 3/4" rear bar that should balance it out from there.
What members here have chosen cornering over drag racing?
Greg

 

[wracks71]

don't let the numbers matching guys give you crap. i am building my 69 GTX clone for turns and a daily driver. my 71 duster is already built for autocross/roadrace duty. go on FABO and you can get some ideas.

 

[Kern Dog]

don't let the numbers matching guys give you crap. i am building my 69 GTX clone for turns and a daily driver. my 71 duster is already built for autocross/roadrace duty. go on FABO and you can get some ideas.

The Mopar hobby really seems to be segmented. There are the guys that wipe their cars with diapers and sit in lawn chairs at shows discussing factory chalk marks, paint runs and fender tags. There are the drag racers with gutted interiors, pizza cutter front tires and fuel cells in the trunk. The road course and autocross guys discuss slip angles, alignment settings and chassis stiffening modifications. I really don't fit perfectly in any of those groups. I have a shiny car that is fast and can corner well. My car isn't a real R/T so I'm not as nervous driving it as I could be. I was just hoping that other members here had similar interests.

 

[Lowhound]

Im in the process of building a 70 Superbee. I will have an almost identical setup as you have Greg with the exception that Im strengthening my K member & purchased the fast ratio pitman arm.However Im undecided on shocks(KYBs or Bilsteins). I wasnt intending on road racing,just wanted it to handle better than factory. Since we have similar almost identical setups, what kind of handling can I expect when mine is road ready??? I forgot to mention. I pulled the 4.10 rear gears in favor of 3.55 set and have a 4 speed tranny.

 

[Kern Dog]

I had a 7/8" rear sway bar on until a couple of months ago. I pulled it because even though the car cornered extremely flat, the tail end was waaaay too loose for spirited cornering. It would always want to hang the tail out whether I was coasting, braking or on the throttle. The car now has more body roll but it feels much safer.
Getting these cars to handle in a neutral manner requires some testing and trial-and-error. I have a few other ideas that I want to try. Helwig now offers a 1 3/8" hollow front sway bar. I was skeptical about how effective a hollow tube could be compared to a solid bar. Testimonials seem to suggest that the wall thickness of the hollow sway bar is critical.
I have another '70 B body K member that I cleaned up and reinforced. The steering box mounts were rewelded. I added gussets to the open areas too. I welded the perimeter , then primed and painted it. Since I'll need to have the car aligned after swapping in a different k member, I'll probably install the Moog K7103 offset upper control arm bushings.
The KYB shocks are considered to be near the bottom of the pack of performance shocks. I thought that they were okay for the money, but after reading from too many respected racers pissing all over them, I'd be interested in trying a set of Bilstiens as soon as I find $350 in an old jacket pocket.

 

[Secret Chimp]

I'm wondering what will get me the best bang for my buck on my small block station wagon... I don't have the money to do a whole lot at once. Would I be better off buying stock rate big block bars, aftermarket bars of some size, or a bigger front sway bar?
Right now it rides nice but rolls over pretty fierce and still has a bit of wallow to it over big bumps even with new shocks (albeit cheapo Monroe blues). I'm not expecting it to act like my Miata but I'd like to be able to take corners without feeling like I'm going to send the front outside tire through the fender.

 

[Kern Dog]

When I bought my 67 Dart, I was really low on spare cash. I decided to go to junkyards with a tape measure and look for sway bars on other cars that I could get to work on mine. I modified a 1 1/4" front bar from a 77 Chevy one ton 2wd truck. I made my own mounts too. For the rear, I used a 3/4" bar from an IROC Z28. If you are cheap and resourceful, the sway bars will give you much flatter cornering for minimal cash. Torsion bars are pricey. Leaf springs are not. You can add or subtract individual leafs to obtain the ride and handling that you like. Make sure though that in the end, you dont use too big of a rear sway bar or too stiff leaf springs. It is all about neutral balance. If the rear end has a stiffer setup than the front, the car will want to spin out. Its FUN when you expect it, but not the fastest or safest setup for the street!

 

[Grabinov911]

Tease you? I just wanna see pictures!

I'm working on a 1970 Roadrunner and going the same direction you are (sorry for the pun - cornering, same direction...). So far I have been buying parts from Firm Feel because I got introduced to them as a result of my leaky old power steering box. They seem to know their stuff, and I'll probably stay with them for springs, etc.

I would love to do big wheels if I can afford them. Was thinking 17's, but I saw a very nice car with 17's in front and 18's in back. The wheel question never goes away... Like I said, do you have pictures?

 

[wracks71]

Tease you? I just wanna see pictures!

I'm working on a 1970 Roadrunner and going the same direction you are (sorry for the pun - cornering, same direction...). So far I have been buying parts from Firm Feel because I got introduced to them as a result of my leaky old power steering box. They seem to know their stuff, and I'll probably stay with them for springs, etc.

I would love to do big wheels if I can afford them. Was thinking 17's, but I saw a very nice car with 17's in front and 18's in back. The wheel question never goes away... Like I said, do you have pictures?

almost everything on my duster is from Firm Feel. dick is great to deal with and will take time too talk to you and help out.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have pictures of the car but nothing yet of the suspension. I probably should. One thing about these 68-70 Chargers, and maybe others that I don't know about, is the odd design of the outer wheel tub. Instead of the tub following the contour or the quarter panel, it goes inboard towards the middle of the car a few inches, THEN up. This makes it hard to run the wheels and tires out to the edge when the car is lowered.
Heres a few shots of the car.

 

[wracks71]

that looks great! are you going to go any lower? i am have the same problem with the inner wheeltub deal on my duster.

 

[moparstuart]

I have pictures of the car but nothing yet of the suspension. I probably should. One thing about these 68-70 Chargers, and maybe others that I don't know about, is the odd design of the outer wheel tub. Instead of the tub following the contour or the quarter panel, it goes inboard towards the middle of the car a few inches, THEN up. This makes it hard to run the wheels and tires out to the edge when the car is lowered.
Heres a few shots of the car.

wow awesome looking car

 

[HemiAlex]

Model: Roadrunner

Year: 1968

Weight: Dry, Wet w/driver 3600lb Est.

Application: Show, Daily Driver, Drag, Autocross, Track, Race. Everything except for show

Engine Package briefly: 440, then a 383 and now a 6.1 based Hemi (Building currently)

Estimate HP: FW or RWHP

Trans: 23-Spline 833

Gears: 4

RE Ratio: 3.54

RE Type: SG Clutch type


Front Tire Size Brand Model: Yokohama Avid S/T 255/60/15

Front Rim width: 7"

Rear tire Size Brand Model: 275/60/15

Rear Rim Width: 7"


TB Dia: 1.22


Front Shocks: Koni Red

Front Sway bar Dia: 7/8" Factory


Rear Leaf Suspension Model Rate: Factory with 2" drop Blocks.

Shocks: Koni Red

Rear Sway bar Dia: N/A

Front Brakes: Factory Police with Firm Feel Carbon Metallic Pads

Rotor Dia Width: 11.75" Raybestos

Caliper-Pistons: Pin single pistons

Cooling Ducts: n/a

Rear Brakes: HP Drums stock shoes

Drum Size Dia Width: 11x3"


Parking Brake: Factory

Dual Circuit Dia MC: MP 15/16 E-berg Alum with AR Adapter Plate


Chassis: Firm Feel Stage 4 super duper top secret box, Firm Feel Greasable LCA pins, Poly LCA bushings, CAP UCA's. Poly Strut Rod bushings, AR LCA Braces, MP Steering Coupler Rebuild Kit, AR Tow Eyes

Subframe Connectors: MP Bolt in (welded)

Torque Boxes: n/a

Roll bar, Roll Cage: n/a

Aftermarket stiffeners:

Comments: Very happy with the over all combo. A lot has come to market since 08 though.



1. Best above improvement: Firm Feel Box

2. Least effective above improvement: WHeels and tires. The sizing is all wrong. Tires are betty than what I'm used to though.

3. Next improvement: Hotchkis Sway Bars and new rear leaf springs

4. Above car handles IMO on a 1-10 ( 10 best Z06, 1 yugo): 6. would be an 8 if I had 17" wheels and tires.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[moparstuart]

love my steer & gear stage II firm feel steering box

 

[benno440]

Hi,
i have a 68 charger 440 stroked to 512 i just finished installing magnumforce tubular k member and swaybar with tubular upper and lower control arms with power steering and 12" wilwood 4 pistons on the front and the magnumforce 4 link rear with 12" wilwoods also i currently only have 15x10 centrelines on the rear and 15x8 on the front with 295/5015 and 2256015 tires (which i will be going somewhere arounf 17x8 front and 18x10 rear as the tyres get alot of roll around a tight corner. but with this setup it is so solid and grips well with the wheels and tires i got i bet it will feel like a go kart once some better tyres are on

 

[benno440]

sorry thats also with qa1 adjustable coilovers and 2" dropped spindles, torsaion bars and leafs are completely gone

 

[696pack]

The Mopar hobby really seems to be segmented. There are the guys that wipe their cars with diapers and sit in lawn chairs at shows discussing factory chalk marks, paint runs and fender tags. There are the drag racers with gutted interiors, pizza cutter front tires and fuel cells in the trunk. The road course and autocross guys discuss slip angles, alignment settings and chassis stiffening modifications. I really don't fit perfectly in any of those groups. I have a shiny car that is fast and can corner well. My car isn't a real R/T so I'm not as nervous driving it as I could be. I was just hoping that other members here had similar interests.

Just like the rest of the hobby the Mopar guys are all over the place with what they like and do.

Myself as an example like many different facets of the hobby. I like a stock looking, correct year color old car with factory or period correct wheels (no 22s.) But I like a modified engine, upgraded modern sound system, upgraded suspension, etc. as long as it is not noticable at first glance which to me takes away from the entire reason most of us are in the hobby in the first place which is to have an old distinctive period correct looking car. I am not into the 4 link or ladder bar look as I think it takes away from the above.

Mopars in there day were some of the best handling stock suspension cars in the industry with their flat cornering torsion bar suspension and far superior to the mushy coil spring competitors.

The biggest improvements in handling across the board in the last 40 years is the tire technology. Yes, there have been some improvements with lighter bodies and componants that add to it but there has been very few dramatic basic suspension design changes.

You can put on a couple of upgraded sway bars, larger torsion bars, H.D. rear springs, upgraded shocks, with the better tires of today and make a dramatic difference in these old cars and they LOOK totally stock.

 

[guitarguy]

Maaaan that Charger... I'm definitely more into old-school wheels but my GOD look at that car! That is absolutely bitchin', as is. I don't think I can roll myself out from under this desk right now.

 

[Kern Dog]

I was busy over the last 2 weeks dealing with the brakes on the car. I wanted to switch from a power to a manual master cylinder, but I couldn't get a decent balance of feel and performance. I just went back to the previous power booster and M/C.
In the interest of better balance, I've been working on relocating the battery to the trunk. I have an Optima, so it can be mounted in about any position. I have a clamshell type steel battery box from a A-100 van. The floor of the Charger behind the wheels slopes UP ward to the taillight panel. I have brackets I fabbed to mount the box level. This is in case I ever switch to a different type of battery.

 

[68 Sport Satellite]

If you went with the same height tires all around do you think you would notice more of a balanced feel? I've got a '68 Satellite that I've modded a lot of items on and I'm running 275/60/15 rear with 235/60/15 front on chrome steelies (8" rear, 7" front). All tires are the raised white letter Mickey Thompson sportsman S/T's. It didn't feel right level or with a slight rake, so I upped the fronts to 225/60/15. Those feel like balloons and have a terrible feel. Now I'm going with wondering if I should just go 255/60/15 on all 4 corners or at least get the fronts down to 215/60/15, but not much tire tread there. I'm tempted to go 17" wheels but I like the look of the 15's so much better.

Here's what I've done in addition to the tire setup:

Hotchkis UCA's
Hotchkis front sway 1-3/8"
boxed stock LCA's
.092" torsion bars (thinking of going to .096's when I swap 360ci for 451ci)
Hotchkis steering connectors
replacement stock strut rods with rubber bushings
Hotchkis rear leafs and shackles
Firm Feel rear sway (frame hung instead of axle hung)
welded torque boxes all 4 corners
Global west tubular subframe connectors (welded both ends)
Edelbrock IAS shocks (variable firmness supposedly)
Firm Feel stage II steering box
Flaming river U-joint steering coupler
stock Federal power steering pump

The car feels a lot better than it did before I started messing with things, but still not as good as I had hoped. I don't think it will ever drive as good as my wife's 2009 nissan...the suspension geometry and the way it works just isn't the same kind of design and I don't want to fork over the cash for something like the magnum force K-frame setup.

I think if I went to 17" wheels and better tires I would see the biggest improvement, as well as if I got the rear to front height closer in ratio to each other. The same diameter all around or within half an inch instead of 1-1/2 inches off.

Without the rear sway bar the car felt like it understeered and I was wondering if my firm feel stage II was too heavy and have considered going to stage I, which is the cop car feel and still heavier feeling than stock from what Firm Feel told me. Instead, for now I just added the rear sway bar and it feels a lot better, but still a bit heavier than what I want. Maybe I just need to drive faster! At low speeds it doesn't steer very responsively. Anyone running a firm feel stage I and happy with it?

The car is in paint and body now and I'll have to mess with it some more later in the summer.

Good post by the way. Keep the good info coming!