cwhubb
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there was an old thread about a 440 that was making a terrible noise, it was also on youtube, did the guy ever fing out what caused it?
horrible noise
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I bought the car
1967 GTX
-POST: Loud and scary noises coming from my 440... http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ises-coming-from-my-440&highlight=67satellite
-POST: GTX in the sun http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?71963-GTX-in-the-sun!&highlight=67satellite
1967 GTX
-POST: Loud and scary noises coming from my 440... http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ises-coming-from-my-440&highlight=67satellite
-POST: GTX in the sun http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?71963-GTX-in-the-sun!&highlight=67satellite
cwhubb
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what did it turn out to be?
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I have recently picked up the "short Block" form a machine shop I have a lot of my work done at.
NOTE: Not Dale Reed LOL! He is TOPS but this project is a bit less critical.
Anyway, if you remember: There was scuffing on the main bearings so I decided to have it re-assembled with all new bearings etc.
I AM slowly getting the re-build underway.
Next step is the 727 Trans, going in for a rebuild at $650 (this week)
My thoughts?
Undoubtedly the Starter was staying engaged.
I took it to the local NAPA store, it operated fine 10X
BUT: a misaligned starter or improperly shimmed starter is a possibility.
OR: The trans
- - - Updated - - -
cwhubb: Still at this juncture, no smoking gun, that IS why I believe starter was staying engaged.
Interesting to note: With the purchase of the 67 GTX was a stack of paperwork from a machine shop in Beaufort, So Carolina where he had the original engine work accomplished.
-He spent almost $1,300 on the engine work. Basic crank, machine work, reassemble the short block.
-And yet, the MAINS in the forum posts definitely showed scuffing on the MAINS.
-Furthermore: The engine had less than 200 miles on it.
-Now, some one on the forum works with High Speed Hyd. Pumps (Budnicks?)
-He said it almost sounded like that might be an issue so, we will see when the Trans gets re-built.
BUT: As of now, no smoking gun.
NOTE: Not Dale Reed LOL! He is TOPS but this project is a bit less critical.
Anyway, if you remember: There was scuffing on the main bearings so I decided to have it re-assembled with all new bearings etc.
I AM slowly getting the re-build underway.
Next step is the 727 Trans, going in for a rebuild at $650 (this week)
My thoughts?
Undoubtedly the Starter was staying engaged.
I took it to the local NAPA store, it operated fine 10X
BUT: a misaligned starter or improperly shimmed starter is a possibility.
OR: The trans
- - - Updated - - -
cwhubb: Still at this juncture, no smoking gun, that IS why I believe starter was staying engaged.
Interesting to note: With the purchase of the 67 GTX was a stack of paperwork from a machine shop in Beaufort, So Carolina where he had the original engine work accomplished.
-He spent almost $1,300 on the engine work. Basic crank, machine work, reassemble the short block.
-And yet, the MAINS in the forum posts definitely showed scuffing on the MAINS.
-Furthermore: The engine had less than 200 miles on it.
-Now, some one on the forum works with High Speed Hyd. Pumps (Budnicks?)
-He said it almost sounded like that might be an issue so, we will see when the Trans gets re-built.
BUT: As of now, no smoking gun.
cwhubb
Well-Known Member
I feel for the po, I'm on a poor mans budget too. you're probably right, I had a bad cap bearing and it sounded like a loud knock, just like a ball peen on metal. hopefully its a starter issue, again when mine went belly up it made a sick grinding grrrr noise, not as high pitched as in the vid but sick. 650 for a trans rebuild? thats a great price, do you live in 1978? lol
- - - Updated - - -
I just moved from nm to ok, 1300 for that work is cheap compared to nm prices, it costs around 3k for a rebuild out there. good to know not every shop wants to bone you
- - - Updated - - -
I just moved from nm to ok, 1300 for that work is cheap compared to nm prices, it costs around 3k for a rebuild out there. good to know not every shop wants to bone you
black64
Well-Known Member
Just to throw this in on the starter staying engaged, I had a brand X that would happen every once in awhile but you could tell besides the noise the panel lamps would dim from the current draw. It had to happen at night to see the panel lamps dim but the noise was high pitched and I had to bang the solenoid or disconnect the battery to stop it.
Dreamcatcher
Will fish for food
Just a quick thought. I built and installed a SB ford in a 66 fairlane. It did the same thing your talking about a grinding noise. Turned out that there was supposed to be a shim from factory on the crank side of the flex plate. It spaced the starter out so it would clear the flex plate (only on automatics). Not sure if Mopar used them or not. Been a while since I did any of my Mopar engines.
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cwhubb:A fellow Muscle car Bud of mine has a friend who Lives 6 months in Idaho and 6 months here in So Cal. He does the trans work for xtra $$
black63: Yeah, these Starters can pull some amperage. But, I am still not too sure what it is, but I'm thinking it is Starter. If NO smoking gun in trans, I'm still putting it together and then we will see just what it is (was)
Dreamcatcher: Did you click on the above threads and hear the "whining" noise?
black63: Yeah, these Starters can pull some amperage. But, I am still not too sure what it is, but I'm thinking it is Starter. If NO smoking gun in trans, I'm still putting it together and then we will see just what it is (was)
Dreamcatcher: Did you click on the above threads and hear the "whining" noise?
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Ski
I'm not a hydraulics expert,
But I worked with aerial equipment & pto's & hydraulic pumps allot
as a New Build Construction Equipment Project Manager @ P.U.E.C back in 97-98 IIRC {long story}
That sound/noise whining, to me on that old post video,
kind of like when your power-steering pump is really low & you run into the stop lock to lock,
it really sounded like a hydraulic pump sucking air/cavitation or dead heading,
{trans maybe, front pump possibly or any pump for that matter}
that was my very 1st thought, that's why I posted what I did...
Running any types of hydraulics/pumps low on fluid will make that similar type of noise too
{trans maybe, power steering maybe, oil pump maybe}
If you've ever heard that kind of noise, in person, you'd know exactly why I thought & said that...
again it's from a video link,
not exactly the best way to diagnose noise problems on desk top speakers...LOL
I still could be completely wrong, but that's my 1st inclination,
as to being way off or wrong,
hell it wouldn't be the 1st time either, certainly won't be the last...
something else
I noticed, nobody commented on it, that I remember,
I just read both all those threads, freaken' waste of my morning...LOL
there was a significant grove worn in the pump snout/drive
on the front of torque converter,
it could be just from the dirt/or grinindings or old seal wearing into it,
but it's not a good sign either way...
running the trans with little to no fluid is/was a really bad idea too,
another reason to think it was "possibly" a hydraulic sounding noise
I don't think that bearing damage/scuffing was that noise "cause" either,
it should be fixed either way thou
good luck, glad you have another project...LOL
I'm not a hydraulics expert,
But I worked with aerial equipment & pto's & hydraulic pumps allot
as a New Build Construction Equipment Project Manager @ P.U.E.C back in 97-98 IIRC {long story}
That sound/noise whining, to me on that old post video,
kind of like when your power-steering pump is really low & you run into the stop lock to lock,
it really sounded like a hydraulic pump sucking air/cavitation or dead heading,
{trans maybe, front pump possibly or any pump for that matter}
that was my very 1st thought, that's why I posted what I did...
Running any types of hydraulics/pumps low on fluid will make that similar type of noise too
{trans maybe, power steering maybe, oil pump maybe}
If you've ever heard that kind of noise, in person, you'd know exactly why I thought & said that...
again it's from a video link,
not exactly the best way to diagnose noise problems on desk top speakers...LOL
I still could be completely wrong, but that's my 1st inclination,
as to being way off or wrong,
hell it wouldn't be the 1st time either, certainly won't be the last...
something else
I noticed, nobody commented on it, that I remember,
I just read both all those threads, freaken' waste of my morning...LOL
there was a significant grove worn in the pump snout/drive
on the front of torque converter,
it could be just from the dirt/or grinindings or old seal wearing into it,
but it's not a good sign either way...
running the trans with little to no fluid is/was a really bad idea too,
another reason to think it was "possibly" a hydraulic sounding noise
I don't think that bearing damage/scuffing was that noise "cause" either,
it should be fixed either way thou
good luck, glad you have another project...LOL
Dreamcatcher
Will fish for food
Yes I did hear the noise in the link. And it is hard to tell but sure sounds like the fairlane noise. If the starter don't disengage it is now spinning at engine RPM. Not designed to spin that fast. And the metal amplifies the sound. I would just to test put a small washer or shim between the starter and the bell housing then start it and see if it still makes the noise. If you do this just don't go too thick with the washer and get too far away from the flex plate that the starter wont engage.
- - - Updated - - -
Also if there needs to be that spacer in there the flex plate might be hitting the block divider plate that goes between the engine and the transmission.
- - - Updated - - -
Also if there needs to be that spacer in there the flex plate might be hitting the block divider plate that goes between the engine and the transmission.
66Satellite47
Well-Known Member
I just listened to the original video, didn't read through everything though. My thought right away was "starter staying engaged". Had that happen on my street Barracuda, the solenoid contacts had welded themselves together. Obviously some other stuff was going on too.
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Budnicks: I need another project like I need another hole in my head! LOL
The PO (nice military kid here at Eddie w/ family) needed to sell it quickly.
I remember you mentioning those very same concerns when "he" had the car. Sounds plausible. That is why I'm delivering the trans to the "trans-guy" soon.
Engine, I had it re-done, short block, all new bearings etc. Polished crank, shot peen rods, etc. NOT Balanced/Blue printed like the Max Wedge by Dale Reed.
Anyway, still to me and some others, it does sound like a starter could have been hung up too. We will find out soon.
Dreamcatcher: Thanks for the input! The starter teeth do seem to be worn on the very front edges of the gear.
66satellite47: Yeah, and I am still leaning that way too. Original Poster (OP) swears that is was NOT the starter. He was under a lot of stress at the time. Also, NO power steering/alternator hooked up.
Someone suggested water pump bearing BUT in the Vid, you can hear the "ITEM" still spinning and slowing down after engine was "off". As if the engine was not firing but starter still spinning down?
The PO (nice military kid here at Eddie w/ family) needed to sell it quickly.
I remember you mentioning those very same concerns when "he" had the car. Sounds plausible. That is why I'm delivering the trans to the "trans-guy" soon.
Engine, I had it re-done, short block, all new bearings etc. Polished crank, shot peen rods, etc. NOT Balanced/Blue printed like the Max Wedge by Dale Reed.
Anyway, still to me and some others, it does sound like a starter could have been hung up too. We will find out soon.
Dreamcatcher: Thanks for the input! The starter teeth do seem to be worn on the very front edges of the gear.
66satellite47: Yeah, and I am still leaning that way too. Original Poster (OP) swears that is was NOT the starter. He was under a lot of stress at the time. Also, NO power steering/alternator hooked up.
Someone suggested water pump bearing BUT in the Vid, you can hear the "ITEM" still spinning and slowing down after engine was "off". As if the engine was not firing but starter still spinning down?
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Well,
The transmission is being torn apart and rebuilt to handle "Torque"
So far, no smoking gun.
-The engine has been machined, short block assembled.
-I'm researching CAMS for Torque.
-Weiand 8009 dual Plane manifold (provided from seller)
-Transmission being rebuilt.
-I'm ordering a DENSO "Hi-Torque" starter.
The transmission is being torn apart and rebuilt to handle "Torque"
So far, no smoking gun.
-The engine has been machined, short block assembled.
-I'm researching CAMS for Torque.
-Weiand 8009 dual Plane manifold (provided from seller)
-Transmission being rebuilt.
-I'm ordering a DENSO "Hi-Torque" starter.
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Good luck Ski hope all goes well or as planned at-least
Michael789
Well-Known Member
X2 on "If you've ever heard that kind of noise, in person, you'd know exactly why I thought & said that . I'm a roll form op and we run a big press for pre piercing steel and that is exactly the sound! Also if you get water in hydraulics it will cause the same effect,when that pump is going out it will whine and you can hear it everywhere.
OldFolksMopar
Well-Known Member
I know this was an old thread, but it was very interesting what I saw. Makes no sense however. Watch the Video and check out the drivers side oil fill cap. It seems to suck in and when you shut it off you can see it relieve itself and pop back out. Of course I am blind in one eye and can't see **** out of the other!!
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Date: 12 April 2015
Time: 1000hrs PST
Newest update on previous owners: "Loud and scary noises" thread:
As of this posting the Transmission is apart and thoroughly inspected.
Conclusion: NO ANOMALIES DETECTED WHATSOEVER!
SO:
1. Engine thoroughly "gone through", taken apart, thoroughly inspected and in process of re-assembling WITH ALL NEW BEARINGS and polishing of crank.
2. Transmission taken apart, thoroughly inspected, cleaned and in the process of being re-built.
Purchased: ARP Fastener/Hardware kit and ARP Head bolts.
Purchased: Melling 63HP oil pump
Purchased: Complete Fel-Pro Gasket kit
Purchased: New oil pan
Purchased: New oil pan pick-up
Purchased: Denso High Torque Mini-Starter
Engine assembly will be this week, slowly and with critical examination of every aspect to insure a quality build.
In my opinion again?
As I have suggested to "Original Poster", the culprit "MAYBE" the Starter.
Simply remaining engaged while engine was running.
Why? Because NOTHING at all has indicated there was any issue with Engine and Transmission. "No Smoking Gun"
Yes, there was some noticeable scuffing/damage with the Main Bearings as identified by some one in the original post.
But all in all, Im under the assumption it was a the Starter remaining engaged.
A Hint to why?
-Other than not finding anything wrong elsewhere, the Previous Owner had moved the battery to the trunk of the GTX.
-Perhaps the wires were mixed up and the Bendix was keeping the Starter engaged?
I am returning the Battery to the engine compartment.
PS: OldFolksMopar: I did notice that oil fill cap "rise-up" and the ""rest"
So: Stay tuned...
To be continued...
Time: 1000hrs PST
Newest update on previous owners: "Loud and scary noises" thread:
As of this posting the Transmission is apart and thoroughly inspected.
Conclusion: NO ANOMALIES DETECTED WHATSOEVER!
SO:
1. Engine thoroughly "gone through", taken apart, thoroughly inspected and in process of re-assembling WITH ALL NEW BEARINGS and polishing of crank.
2. Transmission taken apart, thoroughly inspected, cleaned and in the process of being re-built.
Purchased: ARP Fastener/Hardware kit and ARP Head bolts.
Purchased: Melling 63HP oil pump
Purchased: Complete Fel-Pro Gasket kit
Purchased: New oil pan
Purchased: New oil pan pick-up
Purchased: Denso High Torque Mini-Starter
Engine assembly will be this week, slowly and with critical examination of every aspect to insure a quality build.
In my opinion again?
As I have suggested to "Original Poster", the culprit "MAYBE" the Starter.
Simply remaining engaged while engine was running.
Why? Because NOTHING at all has indicated there was any issue with Engine and Transmission. "No Smoking Gun"
Yes, there was some noticeable scuffing/damage with the Main Bearings as identified by some one in the original post.
But all in all, Im under the assumption it was a the Starter remaining engaged.
A Hint to why?
-Other than not finding anything wrong elsewhere, the Previous Owner had moved the battery to the trunk of the GTX.
-Perhaps the wires were mixed up and the Bendix was keeping the Starter engaged?
I am returning the Battery to the engine compartment.
PS: OldFolksMopar: I did notice that oil fill cap "rise-up" and the ""rest"
So: Stay tuned...
To be continued...
Last edited:
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I'm assembling the engine this week.
Awaiting: New timing cover, cam bearing seal.
Arrived: ARP head bolts, ARP engine bolt kit, new oil pan, Melling oil pump.
Question: I have 2 Melling oil pumps in box.
1. M63
2. M63H
Am I safe to assume the 63H is a High Volume or High Pressure?
What would be the pump to use for a "Above Stock" re-build on this 440?
NOTE: Not a 500HP engine, just 'Torque"
Awaiting: New timing cover, cam bearing seal.
Arrived: ARP head bolts, ARP engine bolt kit, new oil pan, Melling oil pump.
Question: I have 2 Melling oil pumps in box.
1. M63
2. M63H
Am I safe to assume the 63H is a High Volume or High Pressure?
What would be the pump to use for a "Above Stock" re-build on this 440?
NOTE: Not a 500HP engine, just 'Torque"
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if you have enough oil pan capacity, 6 quarts min would be more than safe
I'd go with High Volume instead of High Pressure,
too much pressure will have allot of oil dripping down from the
top end/valve-train onto the crankshaft, among other reasoning behind that thinking
the pressure can be raised, if needed by different springs in the pump cover,
pull the little pin & cap, access the spring
some have said you "allegedly" can stretch or shim the OE spring "a little" &
get more pressure too,
I've never actually tried it, but sounds logical
I'd go with High Volume instead of High Pressure,
too much pressure will have allot of oil dripping down from the
top end/valve-train onto the crankshaft, among other reasoning behind that thinking
the pressure can be raised, if needed by different springs in the pump cover,
pull the little pin & cap, access the spring
some have said you "allegedly" can stretch or shim the OE spring "a little" &
get more pressure too,
I've never actually tried it, but sounds logical
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Thanks Budnicks...
I agree, high pressure can be too much for a conventional street engine.
In 1969 and 1970 Pontiac put out a 80psi oil pump for their Ram Air IV cars.
-Some guys doing re-builds on conventional GTO 400 CI engines installed this pump and had issues.
PS: CAM UPDATE: The Cam that came with the engine is a Comp Cam and it along with the lifters are all good!
So, I will not have to spend extra cash to purchase a new Cam and Lifters.
-The Lifters have the correct "swirl" marks on them indicating that upon initial start-up with the original "Poster", the lifters were rotating properly and the Cam has no wear on it at all.
I agree, high pressure can be too much for a conventional street engine.
In 1969 and 1970 Pontiac put out a 80psi oil pump for their Ram Air IV cars.
-Some guys doing re-builds on conventional GTO 400 CI engines installed this pump and had issues.
PS: CAM UPDATE: The Cam that came with the engine is a Comp Cam and it along with the lifters are all good!
So, I will not have to spend extra cash to purchase a new Cam and Lifters.
-The Lifters have the correct "swirl" marks on them indicating that upon initial start-up with the original "Poster", the lifters were rotating properly and the Cam has no wear on it at all.
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