How to build a high revving 440?

[R413]

Bottom line, spend of big money on good quality light parts.

The phrase “if budget allows” is not part of a high revving 440.

6500 is not high RPM, many bracket racers do that with mild combos.

 

[Al Alguire]

What is a "big engine"? I have read many of the responses here and some good info for sure. But before I would answer anything I would want to know a LOT more about what you are building. If you want specifics. Anything can be made to spin higher, but budget and constraints of the platform would dictate specific answer.

Does not sound like what you want is "high revving" to me. I would call a 528 big by any means either but sure larger than anything from the factory from Mopar. I don't see why you could not spin what you have to 6-6500, that's fairly mundane RPM. But the question is are you making any power up there. Only a couple ways to find out. The dyno or shift cycling the car. No reason a stock stroke 440 cant be run up there. Question is does it need to be. With a stock head probably not going to make power up there, and as i mentioned before application and budget dictate RPM. Only two ways to make power go higher or go bigger. Adding boost is affectively giving it displacement.

So I assume the original question is toward the 528 engine not the 440? If the goal is 800hp from the 528 with a procharger I don't see that being an issue, or a need for a lot of RPM.

 

[padam]

Bottom line, spend of big money on good quality light parts.

The phrase “if budget allows” is not part of a high revving 440.

6500 is not high RPM, many bracket racers do that with mild combos.

Yeah but he’s asking what it takes to go 6500.
Not a whole lot really.

I’ve always been worried about sucking the oil pan dry or otherwise loosing oil pressure. I put a big stock car oil pressure idiot light in my car to warn me. So far it has only happened when I hit the brakes following a burn out. That was with the stock pan.

Now mine will start to miss at the top end of the 1/4 mile. I have my rev limiter set at 6400. I really shouldn’t be on it at 114 mph but it might be right there, or the valves might be starting to float.

 

[Photon440]

To sum up what I am reading here:

Valve train;
Lighter is better, titanium retainers and keepers if the budget allows
Lighter valves if budget allows
Stiffer valve springs a must
stronger shaft blocks

Rotating assembly;
Longer rod puts pin higher in the piston for lighter piston
Lighter aluminum rods
slightly increase bearings tolerances for better oiling
good oiling system a must
Stronger main caps if budget allows

So why I am asking is this. My 69 RR Vert came to me with a damaged 528 Hemi. The damage was caused by probably more than one thing. Someone installed an F1 Procharger on it. Poorly tuned, and the engine not built for it. had 3 pistons with broken ring lands and pushing oil badly. That is my best guess as to why the Hemi broke.

I pulled it for rebuild. Wanting to lower the compression to run the Procharger is becoming a problem. It will need custom made pistons, and a very well thought out build. Keep in mind, this was in a convertible.

I am having second thoughts about building it for a Procharger and putting it back in this car. 800+ HP in in a convertible? You tell me?

So, last year I picked up a 75 motor home 440. Something to put in the car while the Hemi is out for rebuild. The 440 is freshened up with a basic rebuild, bearings and seals, opened ring gaps to the max on the chart that came with the rings. 452 heads with a good valve job and nice springs. I dont know the springs, but the heads had been redone in the past with a very nice valve job. ARP main cap bolts.

I have been running this engine with the Procharger turned down to 5 to 10 PSI by putting a 5" pulley on it. I have the FBO ignition box limiter set at 5200. It is not enough. The engine revs right to the limiter before the automatic trans can shift gears. I want to turn up the limiter to around 6000 maybe a bit higher. I dont know if the engine take it.

I am really thinking to build the Hemi back to a normal 10.5 ish compression and put it in something else.

Thoughts, ideas, concerns?

High revs are usually harder on the internals than boost, why not adjust your transmission to shift earlier instead?

 

[RemCharger]

Another point; I had always considered the max rpm of a stock cast piston 440 at 6500, based on the oldtimers saying that's the point the pistons part ways with the rods.
Put good pistons in, then you're good to 7/7200 when the LYs divorce into two pieces.

 

[33 IMP]

My 440 will go easily to 6500 with a solid purple shaft..... but it doesn't make power there. Because the 906s are a bottleneck,, it runs quicker shifted at 5900.
Yours, under boost to make up for mopar too-small-for-a-big-block heads, probably will make power past 6000, but that's were I would shift it at.
And I'd put a full manual valve body in the trans.

 

[Cranky]

Used to spin my stock stroke 440 to 7300 with light weight pistons and Hemi rods on a stock crank that was prepped some. That was old school and I would never use stock Hemi rods again. Just too heavy. The block didn't even have studs and the main caps had signs of 'cap walk' at tear down but it had well over 300 passes on it...

 

[Paul_G]

So I assume the original question is toward the 528 engine not the 440? If the goal is 800hp from the 528 with a procharger I don't see that being an issue, or a need for a lot of RPM.

The original question is for the stock 440 engine with the Procharger on it. It runs great as it is with the Procharger on it using that big 5" pulley to limit the boost. I have tuned it to live safely on the street. Very conservative tune. But, I am thinking of leaving it in the convertible as it is with the Procharger. If so, it needs some optimization like shifting itself under full throttle., making a bit more boost down low, and less up top. And turning up the rev limiter. Which is the jist of this enquiry.

High revs are usually harder on the internals than boost, why not adjust your transmission to shift earlier instead?

I have moved the shift points down very low already. Normal driving on the street now the gear shift points are really quick, 1 to 2 barely noticeable. The car has a 4.10 geared Dana axle. At full throttle the shifts are still not quick enough to stay out of the 5200 rpm rev limiter.

 

[Photon440]

The original question is for the stock 440 engine with the Procharger on it. It runs great as it is with the Procharger on it using that big 5" pulley to limit the boost. I have tuned it to live safely on the street. Very conservative tune. But, I am thinking of leaving it in the convertible as it is with the Procharger. If so, it needs some optimization like shifting itself under full throttle., making a bit more boost down low, and less up top. And turning up the rev limiter. Which is the jist of this enquiry.




I have moved the shift points down very low already. Normal driving on the street now the gear shift points are really quick, 1 to 2 barely noticeable. The car has a 4.10 geared Dana axle. At full throttle the shifts are still not quick enough to stay out of the 5200 rpm rev limiter.

Did you move the shift points down with the throttle rod modulator, or by changing the governor weights?

 

[Paul_G]

Did you move the shift points down with the throttle rod modulator, or by changing the governor weights?

Just using the throttle rod, which is actually a Lokar kickdown set up.

 

[ilm65]

Speaking from experience, use a girdle on your main caps--keep them from "walking".

 

[Photon440]

Just using the throttle rod, which is actually a Lokar kickdown set up.

That may be why your revs exceed 5200 when shifting - your transmission could be thinking you're under part throttle to shift sooner but also decrease the line pressure for applying bands and clutches, causing a flare. Why not keep the engine as is and install a manual valve body instead?

 

[Cranky]

Just using the throttle rod, which is actually a Lokar kickdown set up.

Never adjust shift points with the kickdown unless you hate your tranny.....do it with the governor instead or get a manual VB like mentioned above.

 

[Paul_G]

Never adjust shift points with the kickdown unless you hate your tranny.....do it with the governor instead or get a manual VB like mentioned above.

It is a 46RH overdrive. I had it rebuilt when I got the Hemi out. I actually called the guy who built it this morning asking if he can modify the shift points for me for that very reason. Line pressure is too low adjusted like this. Again, modifying the shift points is not really the fix I dont think. I hope I dont have to switch to a manual valve body.

 

[BSB67]

Maybe I missed it. Why don’t you try a 5600 or 5800 limiter verses arbitrarily lowering the shift point?

 

[Paul_G]

Maybe I missed it. Why don’t you try a 5600 or 5800 limiter verses arbitrarily lowering the shift point?

Well, I have read that to keep a motor home engine alive it is best to keep it under 5000 RPM. True or false? So that is what I have been doing. Turning it up to 5800 or 6000 is what I am going to do if I decide to keep it in the car. Along with bringing the shift points/line pressure back up.

 

[furious70]

Spin that sucker to 6000. No reason to keep it at 5000 or 5200. With the iron lung it'll still be pulling.
Kickdown adjustment from OEM to raise shift points and create deceleration downshift, never to create earlier shift as u now know.

 

[Dennis H]

Chassis Dyno says mine stops pulling after 4850. That’s the best part of a BB. In the basement. Get a small block and have at it.

 

[INTMD8]

Chassis Dyno says mine stops pulling after 4850. That’s the best part of a BB. In the basement. Get a small block and have at it.

Just a matter of preference.

 

[rumblefish360]

What needs to change to make a big engine spin to much higher rpms, like 6500 or so. Not looking for a build recipe, although that would be nice. What needs to change in theory? Big blocks are known for low end torque. What does it take to make it spin much higher?

IMO, 6500 isn’t high. But this also depends on the engine build parts. In general, to spin any reciprocating assemble to (what ever anyone considers) a high rpm would be the following but necessary to have all the part or parameters met. This is also not a full list.

Lighter piston and rings
Lighter and thinner or more aerodynamic connecting rods & crank, Oil control.
All balanced super well.
Stable @ RPM valve springs, behaves work well for their reduced mass. They may or be right for the combo of extreme thought. IDK what’s out there.
Light weight (Ti) retainers and a camshaft profile that matches what ever rpm you think it high.