Mopar cam info, suggestions.

Engine, Trans & Driveline

  1. Mark1972

    Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    Slowly, things are coming together on my 1977 440 build, which will be replacing the 1969 318 in my '70 Satellite this summer.
    So far:
    Block and heads hot tanked, checked for cracks, and pressure tested. All good.
    Block bored .030"
    Align bored
    Decked
    452 Heads resurfaced
    Crank ground
    New SCAT H-beam rods
    KB pistons(should be final 9.5 comp)
    1970 cast intake
    1970 AVS carb(I believe 750cfm)
    Engine balanced
    Doug's headers

    There are things left to decide on. For example:
    - Camshaft
    Obviously a big one. Mopar Performance Cam P4452783 has been suggested by a local Mopar restorer, and I'm trying to read up on them. Obviously the machine shop is going to give me their suggestion. I was never shooting for a specific HP number with this build. The machine shop figured around 350-375ish, with a focus on streetability, reliability, and torque. I just wanted a fun car to drive with enough of a rumble(already has 2.5" dual exhaust with Flowmaster 40 series mufflers and crossover pipe) to let the masses know it's no longer the same car as last year. So I'd like some suggestions on cams.
    - Distributor
    I haven't even started reading up on these. All I can say is the most common name I keep hearing is MSD.
    - Transmission
    I have the original 727 that was behind the 1977 440, and there were no issues with shifting or slipping before it came out of the car. Should I open this up(or have it done)and have it checked for issues?
    My car is a weekend cruiser, and will never see a 1/4 mile race. I do very little highway, and have decided in a 3.55 Yukon geared posi to make the car a little more fun around town. Any and all thoughts and opinions are as always, appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  2. 69L48Z27

    69L48Z27 Well-Known Member

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    On my last build I used Hughes Engines for a cam. I was able to call and talk with someone that only does Mopar cams and discussed the build and the car. We arrived at a recommended cam and that’s what I installed. I only have a little time on the engine but so far so go. Engine has great response and sounds nasty (good nasty) at idle.

    Cam selection always seems to be a chore. Hughes costs a little more but I’ll likely use them again.
     
  3. wyrmrider

    wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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    all good choices so far
    Transgo reprogramming level 2 kit DIY for the valvebody
    check and see if you have part throttle kickdown
    if not get a later valve body to start with
    they interchange
    Mopar Performance Cam P4452783
    very bad advice- that's a stock magnum cam designed for slightly higher compression although your gears are ok for it
    it does take a looser converter, a hp/magnum converter as a minimum
    problem with this cam is that it is SOOO long expecially on the close side for so little lift
    compared to a crane it is a 290 class cam and compared to Comp/ Lunati/ Howards around 285, it has very wide lobe centers which bleads off dynamic compression big time but does cut down overlap but there is still more than you want or need. The wide LCA also opens the exhaust early which cuts mileage and efficiency
    but it does wear well- but hard on ex valves
    as exhaust lobe is realllly long
    I don't like comp but start with the XE274HL if you want a hot rod cam- compare the lift with the MP
    Now for towing or with taller gears I run a 256 with 454 lift-9:1true compression and ported heads



    so those are your bookends
    Do you want your power around town or out on the highway/ passing gear?

    Howards
    721141-08 CL721141-08 267 267 220 220 .506 .506 108 104 Hyd. Hyd. 1,15 1600-5400
    Good low & mid-range horsepower.
    Needs 4 barrel & headers. will work with stock converter

    Lunati 268 Voodoo
    Hydraulic Flat Tappet. This high performance street cam likes 2400 RPM stall, 800 CFM carb, dual plane intake and headers. Makes un- equaled power to 6200 RPM with proper valve springs.; Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276; Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 226/234; Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .494/.513; LSA/ICL: 110/106; Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd; RPM Range: 1800-6200; Includes: Cam Only

    721941-12 CL721941-12 271 281 224 234 .518 .543 112 108 Hyd. Hyd. 1,15
    will take a HP converter

    The 15 in the notes column indicates a MOPAR grind

    what rockers
    I do not recommend roller tip rockers without B3 Racings kit go to his website and read all 4 tech articles
     
  4. 66Satellite47

    66Satellite47 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    My humble advice, I agree with wrymrider on cam ( never believed in the Mopar grinds), new grinds will be better. I'd call Hughes or Bullet. The Comp XE274HL might be good, I ran a similar solid grind, worked very well as a fairly low RPM street piece. The Voodoo's do look good.
    The '77 727 is probably not close to the combination the car/motor will like. A shift kit will not overcome the basic combination of front band lever ratio, front clutch number & spring combination. A good HP torque converter will make an incredible improvement. Also the 452 heads would benefit a TON from "pocket porting" or a modern deep bottom cut "race" valve job. Removing the excess material below the valve seats make substantial torque & power no matter what CR, cam, or intake/carb you use with no down side.
     
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    • Mark1972

      Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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      Thank you for the replies. Very informative. I spoke to Hughes a few minutes ago. I gave them all my information, and below is the cam they suggested. Thoughts?

      SEH2832BL.jpg
       
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      • 66Satellite47

        66Satellite47 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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        Looks good to me, good lift, short duration. Open up the bowl area & it will really breath.
         
      • wyrmrider

        wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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        Howards grins Hughes cams but
        YOU CAN'T TELL WHAT THE SEAT DURATIONS ARE ON HUGHES CAMS and .050 is meaningless except for degreeing in a cam
        that's a lot of spring pressure
        that's more cam than you want or need

        From a search

        1. Texas69Bee asks 2015
        2. Lunati Part Number: 10230702
          •Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268
          •Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 220/226
          •Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .475/.494
          •LSA/ICL: 112/108
          •RPM Range: 1400-5800
          VS
          CompCams XE268H
          268/280
          224/230
          .477/.480
          110/106
          1600-5800
        383 +.030
        440Source heads cc'd to 75 with a 5 angle valve job, stock HP exhaust, Intake and Carter AVS carb

        Seventy responds 2015 262 voodoo vs comp HE285HL 440 6 pack thread

        "That Voodoo is the same cam in my 6 pack motor (voodoo ),

        I can tell you with a comp valve job, speed pro teflon coated 6 pack pistons, hd crank and rods, gasket matched 906 heads, and MSD ignition, (plus 6 pack of course,

        with ci manifold also matched) the motor made almost 500hp 500ft lbs, 10.5 to one... only cam that we tested that was as impressive was a comp 285hl, but we changed rockers and used a big 975cfm with matching intake , that made 530 and tq was like 550 but we only had 6" of vac...
        go with the voodoo..."

        More compression than you have
         
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        • 65hemi

          65hemi Well-Known Member

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          Mark, talk to Mike at Brazier Machine about cam options.
          Mike can also put you in contact with a guy (Rick) to go through your trans.
           
        • wyrmrider

          wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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          agree with Satellite
          I can't see paying Hughes prices
          I'd think of Bullet if doing a custom grind
          If I had adjustable rockers and a b3 kit I'd think solid with EDM lifters
          otherwise Lunati seems to be best value for a shelf cam
          Even Mike Jones has said so
          IMHO the Hughes suggestion is too big for what he wants to do
          more like the 285HL comp

          We don't know that his trans needs going through
          if it was working drive it and see how much of a converter change is needed with new torque curve
          else you have a crap shoot
          eventually more planataries and 4 clutches etc etc
           
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          • Mark1972

            Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            Lunati tech recommended the 10230703 for my motor only if I went to a 2400 stall and upgraded the intake. Eddy performer or something similar. Other than that, he recommended the 10230702 that you mentioned, only with a "K" on the end for the complete kit. My goodness, cam selection is honestly the most talked about and discussed part of the engine it seems. I'm kind of stuck on the cast intake I have for now, so will probably stick with the 702 if that is the company I go with. Thanks again. I'll make a final decision soon.
             
          • Curiousyellow71

            Curiousyellow71 Well-Known Member

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            I think you can look up hughes profiles on Howard's master lobe list and find the seat durations. Kind of silly that hughes doesn't list as much information as Howard's when they are the same. Imo the Howard's/hughes profiles are very aggressive and go beyond what other companies use for lift in there profiles. But, plenty of guys run them. I'd be more enthusiastic about using the aggressive ramps for racing then for a street build.

            I am a big fan of talking to Tim Goolsby at Bullet, Tim was the first employee that Harold Brookshire(rip) hired. Harold invented the voodoo and xe profiles that have been mentioned repeatedly in your thread. Howard's cams even has UDHarold lobe profile section in there master list. So my feeling if you want the best for your combo I would talk to bullet. It typically will be a little less lift then a Hughes, but you can choose the ramp profile that best suits your combo instead of a symmetrical (no idea what profile hughes uses) Howards or assymetrical voodoo lobe, and grind a cam that will make good hp with the best torque.

            Bullet has asymmetrical and symmetrical mopar grinds. Voodoo 702 is a good cam for off the shelf, just not my first pick.
            Do the shift kit wyrmrider recommended. Distributor options depend on if you want a stand alone unit or one that requires a msd? Lots of good advice for you from the guys in this thread:luvplace:.
             
            Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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            • 66Satellite47

              66Satellite47 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              We don't know that his trans needs going through
              if it was working drive it and see how much of a converter change is needed with new torque curve
              else you have a crap shoot
              eventually more planataries and 4 clutches etc etc[/QUOTE]

              I agree if the 727 worked before, it will again, for a while. The '77 727 lever ratio, clutch combination, clutch spring combination and valve body circuitry are not intended for the power & torque he is likely to produce. Hydraulic component timing is very important & a "shift kit" won't correct for all that. I shouldn't spend his money, but just say'n.
               
            • BSB67

              BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              I'm not sure how open you intended this question to be.

              I don't want to minimize the importance of the right cam, but, 1) there are probably 100 different cams that would be fine, and probably only a hand full of horse power between any of them, 2) Relative to the rest of the motor, cams are not expensive, and 3) if you don't like the cam, you're only a few hundred dollars and one weekend away from changing it to something else.

              However, your piston selection today is critical, and unraveling that choice after the fact is a relatively big and costly deal. What specifically is the piston choice? If this has already been covered, let me know and I'll shut up, and I apologize in advance.
               
            • Mark1972

              Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              The shop doing the engine has a local guy who is very good with the 727 transmission, and he will be getting the tranny and going through it and giving me his recommendations for my intended use. Regarding the pistons, they are the Keith Black hypereutectic aluminum, and according to the shop, with the decking of the block, and resurfacing of the head, will give me an approximate final compression ratio of 9.4-9.5/1. They will sit on SCAT H-beam rods, on the original crank that's been ground. I'm sorry I don't have the actual part number of the pistons at this time. Regarding cam, I am very weary of making the mistake of both over camming and over carburetion, and with the advice of the shop, and people on here, am looking at a couple of different options. They are:
              Lunati 10230702K or the
              CompCams XE268H Extreme Energy 224/230 kit.
              As you said, there are literally hundreds of options, and the biggest problem would be over camming the engine. I think either of these kits would be fine from what I've read. I have spoken to Hughes, Howard's, CompCams, Melling, and Crane. The truth is, I could spend a whole day on the phone with various companies and in the end, get pretty close to the same thing as far as performance goes. I know people are going to shake their heads at this, but the truth is I'm not overly concerned about performance. I don't have a specific HP goal in mind. I want a big block B body that runs and drives well, is reliable, pulls enough vacuum for power brakes, and is fun to drive. I believe the 3.55 posi replacing the 2.71 open diff will make a huge difference alone. Once the cam kit has been decided on and ordered, I'll update this post. I will share a funny thing the fella at Hughes told me. He said he has never spoken to a group of people(Mopar people)who are more concerned about how the cam makes the engine sound as opposed to how it makes the engine perform. We both had a good laugh at that one. Thought I'd share that.
               
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              • BSB67

                BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Considering your goals. I would not pick either of those cams. Not because of their size, but because of their design.

                There are three KB pistons for a 440. If you think you would ever consider a performance improvement in the future (i.e. an aftermarket cylinder head) they you be fine. However, only one of the KB pistons will work with these heads.
                 
                Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
              • Mark1972

                Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Thanks for the heads up on the pistons. The shop ordered them and they have the engine so I'm sure they ordered the correct ones. If you would like to suggest another cam, I'm all ears. Nothing has been decided or purchased. I just listed those two after speaking to those companies, and the folks I spoke to were very thorough in their questions about the rest of the engine build. But by all means, I'd appreciate your input. I don't see ever going to aluminum heads for this application, but an aluminum intake may one day find its way onto the engine. That would be the only foreseeable upgrade I can see right now, and that wouldn't be for a while.
                 
              • BSB67

                BSB67 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Again, because of your goals. The MP cam you mentioned above, the Summit 6401, the Bob K cam, Crower 271. Skip anything that is fast rate. Just my opinion.
                 
              • wyrmrider

                wyrmrider Well-Known Member

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                Lunati vs Comp just trust what the designer of both cams said over and over
                Lunati is a much more modern design because he had more computer power and better formulas (which took more power) the lunati is two generations of experience later
                The summit is even older than the Comp
                IDK about Crower AFIK most of their good cams are special order, at least when I bought them
                IDK where Buick guy K gets his masters
                Mike Jones said Lunati had the best shelf cams and I can take what he says to the bank.
                 
              • Curiousyellow71

                Curiousyellow71 Well-Known Member

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                I would probably do a voodoo 703 over the 702 if it were mine. Neither cam is very big in a 9.5:1 440. Kind of silly saying you need a whopping 2400 stall to make a cam work in a big block..LOL The tires are going to go up in smoke the same with either cam. 703 would respond well to upgrades if you want to play later.

                Of the cams mentioned the crower 271 may be the best compromise of any of the cams mentioned and may fit your goals the best as BSB67 mentioned.

                The summit cams are cheap. Make respectable power, 6401 will barely lope in a 440 if you idle it slow. We've installed probably 20 cams from that series back when trw/federal mogul sold them. Last one I bought was 25 years ago. But I have a summit style generic series cam in half a dozen engines yet. But if I get around to it I plan to replace every one of them. LOL

                Never been around a BobK cam. I believe it is a slight upgrade over the 440 6 pack cam. Similiar design ramps but slightly bigger. I've had a original oem 6 pack cam...it ran alright, but not up to speed w current cams. But if was building for a pure stock car to drag race at F.a.s.t. event. I'd buy a bobK cam in heart beat.
                 
                Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
              • Mark1972

                Mark1972 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                Thank you for your input. While I'm set on the intake and carb I've chosen, my assumption is that may be the first upgrade, in time. So I like the idea of a cam that will work for now, but would possibly be even more effective with some later upgrades.
                 
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