Odd ball question, lol !

Fuel and Air Systems

  1. pearljam724

    pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, you have a Thunder Series too. I ll try that spacer thank you. It’s astonishing that manufacturers know ethanol has a boiling issue and they continue to make carbs from aluminum. An old cast aluminum 4 barrel would help the issue I’m sure. Problem is probably finding a good one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  2. pearljam724

    pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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    This issue, has me kicking myself in the ass. Regarding a mint condition original radiator I sold for cheap. Because, the car I bought had a new aluminum one. I know the car runs about 15 degrees hotter. And I burnt the hell out of my arm on that aluminum radiator replacing a steering pump the other day. One hour after the car was shut off ! Looks pretty though, lol !
     
  3. Dennis H

    Dennis H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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    Heat soak. Ethanol. EFI.
     
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    • pearljam724

      pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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      Yeah, you’re right. That’s the way to go. But, I love carburetors. Problem is, today’s gas isn’t designed for their use. I have a few vintage motorcycles that are all carbureted. Zero problems with ethanol simply because of carb location. Compared to a car, where the carb sits on top of heat source. It’s a big problem.
       
      Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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      • droptop

        droptop Well-Known Member

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        Classic heat soak. Block off exhaust gasses into the intake, lower float level as much as possible, and add a spacer (insulator) under the carb. Or go EFI. One thing is for sure, DO NOT use Cool Carb Technology spacers. Ask me how I know about this.

        210E256C-58BC-4FBE-9EDE-BC9B51A3D7E3.jpeg 778E6806-D286-4DFF-B1FC-99D80ADD0F08.jpeg
         
        Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
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        • BeatersRus

          BeatersRus Well-Known Member

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          do you have a shroud on the radiator?
          all that heat there isnt helping you either..something doesnt sound right.
          i had an Ltd once that ran So hot underhood you could fry eggs on the motor
          there just wasnt enough space for cooling anything in the engine bay.
          our cars have a football stadium of room compared to a car like that.
           
        • pearljam724

          pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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          I have a shroud. I also have a cheap temp gauge. That I know might not be exactly accurate. The car runs close to 200 degrees on an average day. It never over heats. But, I understand that’s a tad warmer than I would like. The car takes forever to cool down. On an average day, 80 degrees. I can run it 10 miles out the road. Park it in my garage, pop the hood. Come back in an hour and everything is still very warm. Past couple days, I just started popping the radiator cap off when I park it at end of running to help. Otherwise it takes a very long time to completely cool off. But, it never over heats. Just takes forever to cool off. Fan works, kicks a good bit of air.
           
        • toolmanmike

          toolmanmike Moderator Staff Member FBBO Gold Member

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          If you can pop the cap off when you return home you cap isn't working/ building pressure. You would already be in the hospital with burns if it did. When you release the pressure (if your cap was working) you immediately lower the boiling point about 45°. Remember, each pound of pressure raises the boiling point 3°. Do yourself a favor and get a new cap and DON"T pull the cap when the engine is hot!
           
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          • pearljam724

            pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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            You’re right Mike. Thank you and I understand. But, it does build pressure. Maybe not enough. You can remove any rad cap nearly right away. You just have to be extremely careful and release the pressure first without letting the cap blow off. But, you know that. When I do this, I have waited 10-15 minutes and there is pressure there. Just not a lot. So maybe it does need a new one or the pressure has bled off enough by then. Not sure ? I wonder if a vented gas cap helps a little with fuel vapor lock or would it spill out of a B body tank ? I put a new thermostats in a few months ago. I don’t think that’s the issue with heat because according to the gauge it never goes above 200. But, I’m going to put a thermal device I have on the rad and intake exterior and see what temp is on those surfaces.
             
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          • greycharger

            greycharger Well-Known Member

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            Two more possibilities for running hot, timing and air/fuel mixture.

            Older engines can't always be tuned or adjusted per their original guidelines. Timing chains can slip over the years, harmonic balancers can move, and the bottom line is you are no longer able to verify where top dead center is using the old methods. Plus, with today's fuels, it's more difficult to reach the point where your old engine performs both efficiently and reliably without sacrificing performance. Following the steps below, you will be able to minimize pinging, have reliable starting under all conditions, and easily get maximum performance from your engine using today's fuels.

            1. Connect a vacuum gauge to a vacuum source directly on the intake manifold. Do not attach gauge to ports being used by any other device. Plug any vacuum lines you remove from manifold to make this connection.

            2. Loosen the bolt securing the distributor so you can turn the distributor to adjust the timing.

            3. Start the motor, let it warm up to normal operating temperature, and stabilize at normal hot idle. Using the idle speed adjustment at the carburetor, set the idle speed as low as possible without stalling the motor. Disconnect the distributor vacuum advance and plug the line.

            4. Keep in mind when adjusting the timing, you have to turn the distributor clockwise to advance and counter-clockwise to retard.

            5. While watching the vacuum gauge, slowly turn the distributor clockwise (advance timing) and look for a maximum reading on the gauge. For instance, if the reading on your gauge peaks at 18 inches of vacuum, that is the maximum for your engine. (The normal range could be from a high of 20 inches to a low of 15 inches, depending on the internal condition of your motor). The reading will drop off if you advance too far, so turn the distributor counter-clockwise (retard timing) to go back to the peak reading on your gauge.

            6. Once you have established the peak reading, retard the timing (turn distributor counter-clockwise) to reduce the reading by about 1 inch to reduce ping. You may need to reduce the reading by 1.5-2 inches total, or even more, depending on the fuel available in your local area. Let your engine's performance guide you. If you had the same 100 octane fuel in your tank that was available when these cars were new, you would most likely leave the timing at the peak vacuum reading, but even when these cars were new, there were issues with fuel. Old Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) exist that recommend retarding timing due to engine ping, so this was a concern even back when the cars were relatively new. We've included a chart on Engine Vacuum Gauge Diagnosis [link opens in a new window or tab] to help you determine what the gauge readings mean.

            7. Stop the motor and tighten the distributor hold-down bolt. While you still have your vacuum gauge hooked up, it is a good time to set the idle mixture needles on the carburetor. The adjustment is normally made with the two screws at the front base of the carburetor, depending on model. Turning the screws in will cause a richer mixture, turning the screws out will cause a leaner mixture.

            8. Start by turning the two screws in fully then backing them out about 1 1/2 to 2 turns. Start the motor and check the vacuum gauge. What you want to see is a maximum steady vacuum reading. At the beginning stick to adjusting just one screw at a time to achieve maximum vacuum. As you turn the screw in you will see a reduction of vacuum on the gauge. When you turn the screw out you will see an increase in vacuum but only to a point. If you get the mixture too lean the vacuum gauge needle will start bouncing around. Your goal is to have maximum steady readings. Then repeat the process for the other screw. To fine tune, adjust both screws slightly while watching the gauge.

            9. Once you have achieved a satisfactory idle mixture, set the idle speed to specification, then remove the vacuum gauge and reconnect any vacuum lines you removed. Don't forget to reconnect the distributor vacuum advance.

            Test drive your car and listen for any ping under light acceleration as well as under heavy acceleration. Additional retarding of the timing may be necessary if excessive pinging occurs. You should hear a very slight ping under light acceleration, and none under heavy acceleration. Your engine is now optimally timed to run on today's lower octane, no lead fuels.
             
          • pearljam724

            pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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            Thank you, grey. For the descriptive info. I will use it, for I have never checked the vacuum. The timing is dead on now. I’ve never experienced the slightest pinging and I listen to the engine closely under the hood often. No pinging, no valve train noise. It’s a very quiet engine. I’ve also set the set screws on carb to 1.5 to 2 turn outs as you stated.
            One issue I’m not sure about related to your info. I installed a fuel pressure regulator. Due to Edlebrock insists the carb needs to run on 6.5 to 7 pds of fuel. I have it set at 6.5 at idle and throttle. I know you can hook a regulator to vacuum so the engine gets less fuel at idle and will increase fuel per vacuum at higher throttles. Problem is, no matter which vacuum port I connect my regulator to it doesn’t fluctuate. It’s always where I set it at 6.5 If I hook it up to the other vacuum port. I get no reading at all on my gauge. Therefore, I don’t have the regulator connected to vacuum like I should. I don’t know if 6.5 pds at idle also is too high. But, I know if I check plugs after a 5-10 minute idle. The plugs are surely not too rich. Infact they are on the hair side of dry. Which is what you want. So, I don’t know if that’s adding to the problem or not. But, based on the plug readings and no smell of gas at start up or idle. I don’t think it’s causing a problem. I can hold the pedal to the floor winding it down a strait away and it runs great for a 360 small block. No pinging, no fuel starvation, no lack of power, no hesitations. I live at the bottom of a mountain range. It has great power climbing steep and long inclines for a 360 small block. I can climb a very long steep hill at half throttle, hammer down beyond half throttle and more power and throttle response is there. So, I’m pretty sure everything is good based on all those diagnoses. Other than my fuel boiling and taking a long time to cool. I think long cooling is due to aluminum rad. But, it may be cap. Or thermostat.
             
            Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
          • pearljam724

            pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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            7 pd rad cap ok for my application ?

            DE984B4D-A204-406A-A71E-D9E6C95A91AE.jpeg
             
            Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
          • khryslerkid

            khryslerkid FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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            • pearljam724

              pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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              Thank you. Do you think 7 would creat a problem ? Im ordering your spacer. Did you have similar problems before install and did you notice quite an improvement ? I expect to, but like to hear your experience too.
               
            • khryslerkid

              khryslerkid FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              Mike answered you question.
              20190813_001052.png

              I acually took every precaution when doing my build to safeguard from detonation to excessive heat. I knew the problems that useing 10% ethanol can have on a carbureted engine and I'm useing two carburetors.

              Kept my compression ratio under 10:1 Useing as much timing as it will take, 16* BTC all in at 34*

              Blocked off the manifold crossover to eliminate any exhaust heat under the carb.

              Used the spacer under the carb.

              Used foil insulation on the fuel line in the engine compartment.

              Used ethanol compatible rubber fuel hose.

              Constructed a good cooling system, new radiator, good fan with a shroud, (one third of the fan blade showing out of the shroud), eight blade water pump, 180* Super Stant thermostat.

              I'm only useing enough antifreeze to protect it to around 20 degrees. Water displaces heat better than antifreeze. I have tried Kool It and Water Wetter. They do work. I'm only useing distilled water.

              I'm running 93 octane, 10% ethanol during the summer months and I'm adding the Stable 360. In the fall I'll fill it up with ethanol free and keep it topped up for the winter storage.

              The engine runs at 180 deg whatever the outside temp is. Hottest I've seen it was 200 deg in stop and go traffic, 90 degs outside and the backup was over two miles long. Placing the trans in neutral and running it at about 1000k, it would drop down to 190 deg. Circulating the trans fluid in neutral helps as much as circulating the coolant when sitting in traffic.
               
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              • Dennis H

                Dennis H FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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              • pearljam724

                pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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                Thanks guys. I ll order that cap, Dennis
                 
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                • 66383

                  66383 FBBO Gold Member FBBO Gold Member

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                  12 gals. Of 93&4 gals of 110 race fuel & cured my problem.
                   
                • pearljam724

                  pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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                  I mainly have used 91 octane. Tried 100 % ethanol free. None made much of a difference. Higher octane’s today also have 10% ethanol. At 10-12 mpg I’d have to be a politician to afford race fuel and be able to actually drive and enjoy the car on a normal basis.
                   
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                  • pearljam724

                    pearljam724 Well-Known Member

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                    Just now called a place I used to buy race fuel from. That was about 7-8 years ago, last. Price today is $8.15 a gallon. Last time I bought it. I’m thinking it was around $5 - $6 a gallon. I used to mix it with pump gas back then 50/50.
                    I used to think that a lot of old car guys were just bitching and complaining about ethanol for reasons that I didn’t agree with. Because, I really never drove a carbureted car often enough. I have a ton of experience with ethanol/carbureted motorcycles for a long time. I’ve opened more carburetors than probably most people. Contrary to what people say. It does no harm to the carb interior. But, I have seen an odd instance or two. However, It’s worst than I thought. The gas has a very low boiling point. Bad situation for a carbureted car. Doesn’t effect bikes, mowers and other equipment when the carburetor isn’t perched on top. But, in comparison. It is a very poor fuel. What good is a fuel, that you can’t risk it getting a little warm. Hard to avoid too.
                     
                    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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