The Elephant In The Room: unloading the load from a B-body.

[fullmetaljacket]

Thanks for starting this thread, looking foward to learning some tricks.

I just trimmed 16 lbs. off my Savoy just by changing to aluminum shocks. Expensive but I also get the benefit of adjustable suspension and the weight loss is just icing on the cake.

Gus

Thank you for the kind and encouraging words gentlemen. I am kind of a semi perfectionist and the love of true craftsmanship is probably the true driving force here. What may seem like a masterclass is not at all, it's just because over the years, all that I've done is sat down with the car and studied it throughout both standing still and in motion.
There is so much to cover and uncover that I predict that this will go all over the place, so I'm going to try and talk through the ever so popular (Region #1) which is enough of a planet all in itself. Again, starting with the hood.

Patience is the virtue here because some of us can not or choose not to go the whole yard and can only entertain certain ways to trim weight based on the wallet, recourses and time. There will be expressions of personal tastes following on most ideas, so thicken your skin Boyz, its gonna be rough. LOL.
As a note: my opinions or adages which in proper grammar should read as" my two cents" will instead be under the heading "My 2%" in homage to the Chrysler skunk work cars that started this whole lightweight F/Xation, the 2% FX cars of '64 and '65.

I'm probably preaching to the choir here since most know how and where to get readily available lightweight parts, but in limited availability for Mopars, carbon fiber seems to be the new kid on the block since its fairly recent trickle down from the F1 playbook. The question is, how many can really afford it.
Carbon Fiber which has been known for its strength, fine finishes and super lightweight properties may cost a prime dime over the more affordable and available fiberglass, but fiberglass has come a long way since its public introduction after World War II and companies like Stinger/Glasstek now offer almost if not perfect replicas of many of the Mopar hoods, fenders, doors and other items in both street and race versions.
As far as hoods, street versions are molded to allow the factory rear hinges while insisting on the usage of lightweight springs and the stock hood latch attachment. Race versions are to be with four hood pins to hold it down in place. A whole lot lighter, but has to be entirely removed by hand to service the engine. If anyone has the 411 on other reputable companies that make a great product, bring it up for air.

If the funds are there to acquire one of the super light hoods in carbon fiber, then enjoy the fruit, but keep in mind that fiberglass will present a substantial weight loss incentive without lightening up the wallet. Just my 2%.

A third option: Light alloy hoods and hood pins both factory and homemade. Keep an ear.

 

[INTMD8]

I took over 200lbs out of one of my cars with carbon seats, bumpers, lightweight battery. Now built a titanium exhaust for it.

As for my Charger I've just accepted that it's heavy at 4,111lbs. Not much I'm willing to do for weight reduction that wouldn't change the look I was going for. (well, maybe changing the iron hemi for an aluminum one)

Great thread!

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I took over 200lbs out of one of my cars with carbon seats, bumpers, lightweight battery. Now built a titanium exhaust for it.

As for my Charger I've just accepted that it's heavy at 4,111lbs. Not much I'm willing to do for weight reduction that wouldn't change the look I was going for. (well, maybe changing the iron hemi for an aluminum one)

Great thread!

Say whhaaatt? Titanium exhaust? And here I thought that Carbon fiber was expensive.LOL.
I'm not going to venture into that underworld part of region#1 just yet, but there are super tricks out there.

Just as a note, there are lots of reversible tricks that can be done to almost every car to preserve its value or way of usage.

 

[INTMD8]

Say whhaaatt? Titanium exhaust? And here I thought that Carbon fiber was expensive.LOL.
I'm not going to venture into that underworld part of region#1 just yet, but there are super tricks out there.

Just as a note, there are lots of reversible tricks that can be done to almost every car to preserve its value or way of usage.

Yes weight reduction can get pretty expensive. I think I spent around 20k just in weight reduction. The titanium exhaust I repurposed mostly from a C5 Z06 system so that was inexpensive.

 

[RemCharger]

So if we're starting at the front of the car..
Gratuitous shots of lightened 64 Dodge front bumper brackets are welcome!

 

[fullmetaljacket]

So if we're starting at the front of the car..
Gratuitous shots of lightened 64 Dodge front bumper brackets are welcome!

So if we're starting at the front of the car..
Gratuitous shots of lightened 64 Dodge front bumper brackets are welcome!

Starting up front from the top down. Top weight has more of an effect but this thread will and should cover all front items within reason.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Yes weight reduction can get pretty expensive. I think I spent around 20k just in weight reduction. The titanium exhaust I repurposed mostly from a C5 Z06 system so that was inexpensive.

View attachment 1468449View attachment 1468450

Totally get it. $$$$$ I was going to go Titanium with the headers, but time and a good fabricator was lean back then. Now I have some leads and it will get interesting indeed as the current exhaust system attest. I'll get into exhaust down the road, but feel free to add.

 

[fourgearsavoy]

I still have the flat steel hood on my car and I have a glass Max-Wedge scoop I wanted to install. When I remove some of the bracing to cut the hole how much do most of you guys remove when cutting a single hole for a single carb?

 

[RemCharger]

I still have the flat steel hood on my car and I have a glass Max-Wedge scoop I wanted to install. When I remove some of the bracing to cut the hole how much do most of you guys remove when cutting a single hole for a single carb?

Depends on your air cleaner dimensions. Put a long carb stud in it and shut the hood.
There's your center

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I still have the flat steel hood on my car and I have a glass Max-Wedge scoop I wanted to install. When I remove some of the bracing to cut the hole how much do most of you guys remove when cutting a single hole for a single carb?

Gus. What's up?
Stay ROW BOAT STICK man.

There's not much of a difference between a '64 and '65 hood as far as measurements length wise. IIRC, the Plymouth's are about 1"- 2" less in length. It could be a hair more or less. That right there is one of a few reasons that make the argument why Plymouths were a little lighter than their Dodge Brothers counterpart. Slightly smaller body equals slightly less weight.
I have an original steel hood ('65 Dodge) that uncut and in stock form was 79 Lbs before going to the gym.
After removing the inner bracing to just before the borders, cutting out a 21" X 19" oval hole (should have been smaller) for the carb clearance and after installing a fiberglass version of the '65 Hemi wide mouth scoop, it weighed 56 Lbs. A total of 23 Lbs removed.
The scoop was the first prototype on display at Kramers spot out in Carlisle in '92-'93? I do remember that it was the end of the show and it had to be had. It was a sturdy and strong fiberglass piece. Probably would have been lighter with an original thin gauge steel '65 A-990 Hemi scoop and even lighter with an original '64 A-864 aluminum Hemi scoop. Now mind you, this is one of the ways of removing weight from a steel hood aside from chemically milling it, (more on that later) but not a whole lot is removed because the majority of the weight is still on the outer skin which covers a large area. What's important is to leave that complete surrounding border part of the inner bracing underneath intact being that it's pinch welded to the outer skins side walls. It gives it somewhat rigidity but not enough until a proper scoop is installed. This is because once the entire inner frame is removed, the outer skin portion becomes flimsy especially with the rear hinges pulling at it from those corners. The only way to restore some rigidity is to install a scoop to bridge and reintroduce some back bone. Clean and careful removal is what makes for a great looking lightweight steel hood.

With the latch mechanism removed, pins have to be installed pretty much like the lift off '69 6ix pack Road Runners. Pins are very important and quality is top priority. With all the proper rubber grommets and strong pins, it can be stealthy and flush and ready for the curious knocking knuckles expecting the usual fiberglass.

For the record from old records, the hood hinges along with the hardware bolts, front locking latch mechanism weighed 13-1/4 pounds.
The 4 corner steel hood pin posts with stainless plates, rivets, and lock nuts weighed 3 Lbs.
Later on, an aluminum set of hood pin posts with aluminum plates and aluminum lock nuts were weighed half that at 1-1/2 Lbs. Moroso makes them also but I suspect that they are a little too little to be safe. Certain alloys work harden and have to be checked or replaced, so don't let the lure of less weight fool you into a stupid situation.
Later, later after that, a set of porky Wood Brothers aluminum pin posts replaced the prior ones. They allegedly can hang at stock car speeds for hours when installed correctly.

There's another stock steel hood theory that can still make hidden power, but not make the cut as far as cutting weight.
Images to follow.

 

[33 IMP]

I posted here a while back that I remembered weighing my 62 savoy hood at around 75 lbs, and some here said I was crazy. Glad to see I wasn't too far off with my memory.
Also, I used a gutted steel hood with a glass scoop and pins on my Cortina, and it was considerably lighter than my factory 69 liftoff hood.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

I posted here a while back that I remembered weighing my 62 savoy hood at around 75 lbs, and some here said I was crazy. Glad to see I wasn't too far off with my memory.
Also, I used a gutted steel hood with a glass scoop and pins on my Cortina, and it was considerably lighter than my factory 69 liftoff hood.

You weren't crazy. Lets not forget that the steel gauge was a bit thicker back in those days compared to today's appliance foil. Hood decks were longer, even for a Savoy and trunk lids were longer.
A good portion of hoods today are aluminum and fenders are foil with plastic added in.
I picked up several hoods at a body shop the other day and they were all aluminum.

If it weren't for today's tin gauges and aluminum hoods, new Challengers would be weighing over 5000 Lbs. A good part of their weight is wiring.

 

[dvw]

My recipe for region 1; It starts with having tallented friends you can barter with. A friend working the plastic lab at FCA made my son carbon bumper brackets years ago. Fortunately he made me a set years later. Dimensionally they are the same thickness and shape as the originals. The entire set front and rear are 2.5lbs. My hood and scoop are also carbon. Traded the labor on an engine build for the labor. I bought all the supplies for the hoos, scoop, and the mold. 3 years ago that was $600. Now it's doubled. Though it couldn't be vacuum bagged it's still pretty light. The pianted finished unit is just over 19lbs. The hood pins and rear plates are aluminum. Chrome moly tubing is used for the steering shaft and strut rods (.090"x 3/4"), lower corner fender braces (.059" x 3/8"). K frame flanges are cut off and weded solid with a large pan cut out. Motor mount brackets have been removed. Steering box bracing cut off and replaced with a pair of .090" moly tubes. Aluminum is used for the motor plate and radiator. The fan mounts and carb air pan are .030" aluminum. Front brakes are Willwood with aluminum hubs, calipers, and brakets. Aluminum Afco shocks as well. And last the oil pan is aluminum. All the inner fenders and stock chrome bumpers remain. This is just the tip of the iceberg compared to Lee's stuff.
Doug

 

[fullmetaljacket]

My recipe for region 1; It starts with having tallented friends you can barter with. A friend working the plastic lab at FCA made my son carbon bumper brackets years ago. Fortunately he made me a set years later. Dimensionally they are the same thickness and shape as the originals. The entire set front and rear are 2.5lbs. My hood and scoop are also carbon. Traded the labor on an engine build for the labor. I bought all the supplies for the hoos, scoop, and the mold. 3 years ago that was $600. Now it's doubled. Though it couldn't be vacuum bagged it's still pretty light. The pianted finished unit is just over 19lbs. The hood pins and rear plates are aluminum. Chrome moly tubing is used for the steering shaft and strut rods (.090"x 3/4"), lower corner fender braces (.059" x 3/8"). K frame flanges are cut off and weded solid with a large pan cut out. Motor mount brackets have been removed. Steering box bracing cut off and replaced with a pair of .090" moly tubes. Aluminum is used for the motor plate and radiator. The fan mounts and carb air pan are .030" aluminum. Front brakes are Willwood with aluminum hubs, calipers, and brakets. Aluminum Afco shocks as well. And last the oil pan is aluminum. All the inner fenders and stock chrome bumpers remain. This is just the tip of the iceberg compared to Lee's stuff.
Doug

Doug's Car is a true specimen of top-tier craftsmanship. At the speeds and violence that that car indulges in, it needs weight just to keep it on the ground.

Since we are still on the hood about hoods, what can a totally stock steel flat hood do for a cars performance? Absolutely nothing other than keeping hot air underneath in the engine bay right? Well, the flat scoop-less hood does provide one important function to drag cars, less drag. For what ever it's worth, what should be underneath a flat hood is a logistical answer to a some of the wildest air induction concepts in the industry, the iconic Mopar hood scoops. No other manufacturer ever deliberately and exaggeratedly provided hood scoops like mother Mopar. Let's face it, they were some of the coolest looking and most blunt air grabbers, but arguably struggled to function as a result of their form against aerodynamics and air behavior inside the scoop.
Be it a AAR or T/A, 6ix Pack, Air Grabber, dual snorkel swinger scoops or the Super Stock Hemi, they all obviously faced forward and thus faced a wall of obstruction from a common villain, the air itself. In theory it would make sense to have the mouth of a scoop facing forward to grab and funnel air into the carburetors mouthpiece, but it could and would impersonate as a parachute creating some of the nastiest aero drag issues at mid to top range. Enter the '64-'65 stock car "under the hood" cowl induction air scoops compared to a '65 all aluminum homemade lightweight hood and scoop attached below.
I personally love the lightweight forward scoop with all of its gremlins against the stealthy and allegedly more efficient cowl induction pan. The lightweight scoop is a very close copy of the '65 AFX fiberglass "tall mouth" Hemi scoop, but in aluminum.
Let the food fight begin.......

 

[Dan64]

I went and weighed the red awb today, all steel car with glass bumpers and dash, aluminum heads and water pump
View attachment 1468044

Jeff, is that you plus the car or car only?

 

[Ceedawg]

Can do this..

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Jeff, is that you plus the car or car only?

Just the car

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Just the car

So one would wonder why a small conversation on street scoops on a weight loss thread? The fact is that we Mopar guys love what our engineers did back then and are doing again now, they make some really cool looking scoops functional or not. I guess what I'm really trying to say is what is better......less weight with drag up top or more weight with a slippery air intake system underneath? I'll take the less weight with drag up top just because I'm a sucker for those cool menacing looking hood scoops. Plus they are a Mopar staple.
Funny how the shaker scoop (slippery but not so efficient) made a comeback on the new challenger as did the AAR (low below the air stream) as did the T/A and now the wide mouth Hemi scoop (fairly efficient, but a parachute) on the Demon and Demon 170.

 

[fullmetaljacket]

Just the car

Jeff, that's a respectable starting weight for such a car, but I know there is an easy conservative 100 Lbs that could be shaved and still be all steel.

 

[Jeff Peterson]

Oh I suppose, but it’s just an old show pony, very rarely does it “stretch” it’s legs in anger!