Tie rod hitting torsion bar

[monroegtx]

I've put new tie rods, pitman arm and idler arm in the front and now the top of the tie rod hits the torsion bar. I googled this problem and found a couple of threads on other sites which also had this problem, and some suggested shimming the top of the steering box. I did this, and it did give it clearance, but I'm a bit weary about having the box shimmed. I don't know if the problem was there to begin with as I started taking it apart not long after I got the car. I never actually drove it first. I was wondering if anyone has experienced this before and what the cause may be. The tie rods came in a front suspension rebuild kit for b body, and the pitman arm and idler arm are both for '70 b body and seem to be the same as the originals that came off. Although they are not quite as flat on top. As far as I can tell the centre link is in the right way round so I'm a bit confused. Any ideas? :confused:
View attachment 208725 View attachment 208726 View attachment 208727

 

[HT413]

First thought is the ball joint is not seated, is the tapered shaft installed correctly?

I know you said you physically compaired old and new, but I think it's the pitman arm or even idler arm that does not have the correct bend to it, which is raising the ball joint and causing conflict.

 

[Badvert65]

Is it hitting with the car jacked up (as the pictures suggest)? Have you tried it with the car on the ground? Does it hit on both sides (Idler and pitman)? With tapered holes, you can't put the center link on but one way (easily). If the pitman arm/idler arm joint is clearing, I don't see why the tie rod isn't clearing.

 

[Hemi Rebel]

Turn the tie rod sleeve assembly around. Make the inner the outer and vice versa. See if that works

 

[gdrill]

I just looked at my 66 slant 6 setup with no engine in it. There is at least 1/2" to 3/4" clearance. The tie rod does appear to be pulled in further than yours does. When the pitman arm goes over does it have a 1/2" or so of clearance?

 

[silversedan]

welcome to the world of aftermarket parts, if you still have it take your old tie rod end and bolt it in the center link and see if it's shorter than the new one if not the problem is your aftermarket pitman arm.

 

[nm9stheham]

The drag link looks to be installed correctly, with the center drop section dropped below the pan. The tapers in the draglink ends determine the direction in which the studs insert; they look right for your car. (I assume it is a '70 B body? You don't make that clear.)

Is there any sort of spacer between the K member and the frame subrails? That would casue this problem.

I think I just spotted what is possibly the issue: the cotter pin hole is waaaay too low on the pitman arm stud. It should be in the slots in the castle nut, NOT below the castle nut. Something is wrong with the drag link or the other parts, particulary the pitman arm stud. This drag link may be the wrong one or has been hosed up by someone in the past. It almost looks like the taper in the drag link for the pitman are has been reamed out; that would pull the drag link upwards, and cause both the cotter pin problem and the problem with the tie rod end hitting the T-bar. Or the pitman arm has the wrong stud size (too small) or the castle nut is wrong (too short).

Take that drag link out and inspect it closely. Also, check the taper on the idler arm end. I don't think they are different sizes for idler arm stud and pitman arm stud, but perhaps it has been installed left for right.

Other ideas:
Check 2 things:
1. See that the tie rod end is fully drawn into the tapered hole; the location of the castle nut and cotter pin look good but.....
2. This is probaly not it, but check the taper on the hole on the end of the drag link for the tie rod end, and be 100% sure that it it tapers with the large diameter at the top and small diameter at the bottom. If not, then you have the wrong drag link in the car. It has happened before.

Perhpas the tie rod end is just oddly made or the wrong part....the boot does not look quite normal, and the rod end looks a bit too high on the drag link. Maybe innner and outer are backwards as suggested.

 

[kiwigtx]

The car is a 1970 GTX.

And I agree with above - the outer tie rod taper looks to be wrong for the drag link hole. Further inspection and measuring required I suspect. ;)

 

[monroegtx]

The car is a 1970 GTX.

Sorry folks, as Kiwi said above the car is a '70 GTX. It only hits on the driver side, and the pitman arm clearance would probably be a bit less than 1/2". I'll try to get out in the garage tonight when I get home from work and check out a couple of the suggestions above. In the meantime thanks for the input. :icon_thumright:

 

[badmopar67]

This is interesting I just checked my 67 suspension with the car on the ground I have an inch between the tie rod end and a torsion bar. I see the nut is drawn up pretty far on the idler arm leaving the cotter pin
outside the castle nut still doesn't look like that would give it enough room to drop the inner tie rod end an inch below the torsion bar I'm thinking the Pitman arm or the inner tie rod end is the wrong one.

 

[monroegtx]

Ok, I turned the tie rods around but that didn't make any difference. I put the old tie rod back in to see the difference and it is quite a bit. First photo shows the clearance on the idler arm. Don't seem to have any problem there. Second shows the old tie rod back in. Also, I've taken the shims out of the steering box, so you can see the actual clearance. Even though it's close would this be ok?

Third photo shows the clearance on the pitman arm, which is actualy about 1/2 - 3/4" as Gdrill mentioned with his. Photo 4 shows the old and the new. As you can see the difference is quite a bit. Is it possible that I've just got bad tie rods? Are the moog ones slimmer on top?

 

[Hemi Rebel]

Whats the passenger side look like?

 

[nm9stheham]

His 1st photo in the latest set of pix is for the idler arm (passenger) side.

The new tie rod end looks to be just a different design on top with the higher top. (Perhaps for the greaseable design and zerk fitting?) The rest looks the same.

My point on the pitman arm cotter pin is that if the castle nut is the one that came with the pitman arm, then it will be designed so that the cotter pin hole will be at the height of the castle nut openings if it is matched to the right tapered hole in the drag link. (Unless the supplier put in the wrong castle nut....) Too large a tapered hole in the drag link OR a smaller than correct taper on the pitman arm stud would cause the drag link to be pulled up higher and reduce the tie rod end clearance to the t-bar.

Have you carefully compared the pitman arm stud diameters and taper angles on the old vs new?

Is the idler cotter pin at the right height so that the cotter pin is through the castle nut openings?

And have you looked at the K-member to see if it is bent at all? Look from the fron and see if the inner pivot on the driver's side is low. Measure from the T bar to the subframe rail on both sides and see if they are the same. The idea is to see if the T bar on the drivers side is lower for some reason.

Your clearance should stay fixed as long as the sub-frame and K-member don't move or flex much between each other. Just don't turn the wheel during your Dukes of Hazard jumps and it should be good!

 

[monroegtx]

Thanks nm9, I'll probably have to wait for the weekend to check all that out. Don't think I'll have time before that. Will let you know.

 

[nm9stheham]

OK.... just thinkin' out loud... if the left front was ever hit, then the left side of the K-member where it turns up to join the subframe could be bent up, and cause this. Just ot give you an idea of what to possibly look for.

 

[monroegtx]

Since I worked over the weekend I didn't get to do everything I wanted to, but I checked over the K frame and it doesn't look like its been hit or bent. I went to the local parts store to check out the tie rod selection and ordered an early Dodge Phoenix one from around the same era. Going off the picture on his computer it looked pretty much the same as my original one. Had to wait till today (Monday) to pick it up. I left the car up on stands till I got the chance to put it on, so I didn't do any ground clearance measurements as yet. The tie rod has a lower profile like the original so it clears the torsion bar. Not overly keen on the new one as it doesn't have a grease nipple and no split pin hole. But it'll do for the time being until I get a good set of Moog's I think. Once I adjust everything up I'll put it back on the ground to see how it sits and take some height measurements left and right and see if there is any differences.

 

[nm9stheham]

Interesting and thanks for sharing. No cotter pin hole is disturbing. Well, you can always drill one if need be.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

I had a similar issue when we went to change out all the bushings and tie rod ends on my RR, turned out that a previous owner had bottomed out the front end so bad that it bent the bracket holding the steering pitman arm and threw off the whole geometry of the center link, the old tie rods did not hit then because they were stock small ones we discovered it when I switched to larger end with the PST adjustable sleeves.

Bent and dented my K member too was sad to see that looked like dukes of hazard had been driving it. Point is check all clearances and the geometry and check for damage.

 

[HT413]

Yeah I'm with nm9, that split pin is the difference between hitting a guide rail or not. I'd drill one.

 

[monroegtx]

Ok, here we go again. I went to the mopar resto shop (one of the few that we have here) to pick up a cpl of things and have a look at the tie rods that he had. He stocks some from PST and they looked to be lower profile than mine so I bought a set. You can see that the top doesn't step up like the other ones I had, and also the studs were shorter and the hole aligns with the crown nut. What a difference a better brand makes. The rubbers seemed to be better as well, they don't pull away when the car is up and the wheels drop. Even though it is still a bit close they seem to clear ok. Thank's to everyone who put their ideas across. You guys rock. :headbang:

Tie rod clearance and Pitman arm clearance.


I think it did have a whack at one stage as there is a definite centre link mark on the pan like bigmanjbmopar had. I assume it must have been repaired but not as much as it probably should have been. At least I know the K member is strong because I had the welds re done where they looked a bit dodgy before powder coating.