Timing?

[33 IMP]

I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if its already been suggested.... did you try a different timing light?
Bad light?-wacky numbers?

 

[beanhead]

I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if its already been suggested.... did you try a different timing light?
Bad light?-wacky numbers?

Thanks, yeah tried another (good) light.

 

[Kern Dog]

I had a problem with a compression gauge a few years back. I kept getting readings well over 210. I got another gauge and it showed the numbers to be in the high 180s. It turned out that the needle on the first one started at 30!

 

[furryfrog]

Haven't re read the thread but perhaps your timing Mark's are off? Reminds me of a roadkill episode, half way to Alaska in the winter they figured it out, I know in my car having my timing high at idle enabled me to lean out my carb quite a bit, for fuel economy, more heat transfers to the engine but it's fine. Also with my programmable timing box i retard the timing off idle when the vacume drops, your engine seems different though, Try choking on the carb a bit to see if the idle improves? Q jets can be set really clean at idle, I have no experience with them with cams like you have.
Must be frustrating, just throwing ideas out. I hope you get it sorted.
Do you have a PC system or evaporator type canister on the car, vacume leak?

 

[Wietse]

After reading all this I kinda felt this is a similar issue i am having with my car and it's 440.
Although not being rebuild, i just started playing with it because after installing an AFR meter i found it running pig rich during cruising. (10-11 AFR)
At idle it shakes, not all the time but every couple of seconds the engine really tilts due it's lumpy idle.
After a lot of trial and error i replaced my Holley 750 DP for a street avenger 770 with vacuum secondary, unfortunately lost the 4 corner idling but i did manage to get my AFR readings as i wanted it.
That was all i wanted at that point, but also went on to see if i could improve idle quality.
Mine is set at 20* initial, 18 mech advance and no vacuum advance. The vacuum advance causes pinging no matter what, the engine does not like it so i left it out.
Mine felt same as you mentioned, adding initial till the point it sounds really good i found it around 30-35* as well and also believed it was too much.
I always tried to set the AFR at idle around 14.5-ish, but after some trial and error found it was more happy with a bit more rich idle and increase the idle rpm up from 850 to 1000 rpm.
With the rpm increase you will gain some vacuum (mine around 10Hg now) and running a bit more rich speeds up the combustion process and i think due to that you can reduce initial advance as well.
Worth a try to increase rpm more, adjust idle mixture to 12.5 - 13.0 or so and see if you can get the initial advance screwed back to around 20*.

 

[beanhead]

I had a problem with a compression gauge a few years back. I kept getting readings well over 210. I got another gauge and it showed the numbers to be in the high 180s. It turned out that the needle on the first one started at 30!

I wish it was a bad tester! Not my luck though LOL...

Haven't re read the thread but perhaps your timing Mark's are off? Reminds me of a roadkill episode, half way to Alaska in the winter they figured it out, I know in my car having my timing high at idle enabled me to lean out my carb quite a bit, for fuel economy, more heat transfers to the engine but it's fine. Also with my programmable timing box i retard the timing off idle when the vacume drops, your engine seems different though, Try choking on the carb a bit to see if the idle improves? Q jets can be set really clean at idle, I have no experience with them with cams like you have.
Must be frustrating, just throwing ideas out. I hope you get it sorted.
Do you have a PC system or evaporator type canister on the car, vacume leak?

Balancer is the 440 source one-piece outer shell unit, so the marks can't move like on an OEM. (The marks are off by one though, verified when engine was apart but I account for that). It kind of acts like a vacuum leak but all of the typical tests have said no leak, it dies immediately even before my hand gets completely over just the primaries..I'm using a PCV which is sucking away. If I plug it, engine dies...if I pull it off the hose the idle gets faster.

After reading all this I kinda felt this is a similar issue i am having with my car and it's 440.
Although not being rebuild, i just started playing with it because after installing an AFR meter i found it running pig rich during cruising. (10-11 AFR)
At idle it shakes, not all the time but every couple of seconds the engine really tilts due it's lumpy idle.
After a lot of trial and error i replaced my Holley 750 DP for a street avenger 770 with vacuum secondary, unfortunately lost the 4 corner idling but i did manage to get my AFR readings as i wanted it.
That was all i wanted at that point, but also went on to see if i could improve idle quality.
Mine is set at 20* initial, 18 mech advance and no vacuum advance. The vacuum advance causes pinging no matter what, the engine does not like it so i left it out.
Mine felt same as you mentioned, adding initial till the point it sounds really good i found it around 30-35* as well and also believed it was too much.
I always tried to set the AFR at idle around 14.5-ish, but after some trial and error found it was more happy with a bit more rich idle and increase the idle rpm up from 850 to 1000 rpm.
With the rpm increase you will gain some vacuum (mine around 10Hg now) and running a bit more rich speeds up the combustion process and i think due to that you can reduce initial advance as well.
Worth a try to increase rpm more, adjust idle mixture to 12.5 - 13.0 or so and see if you can get the initial advance screwed back to around 20*.

Mine prefers to be on the rich side as well. Idling about a high 12- 13 AFR now at 900 in gear.

 

[beanhead]

Welp.....update to the update...while waiting for a loaner distributor to try I went ahead and swapped in an FBO box and coil that I had. Did the requisite ballast bypass and...knock me down and call me shorty it smoothed it out wonderfully. Idle speed and vacuum also increased a bit just from the change. (I'd tried a couple different boxes and coils with exactly the same results so I was sure it wasn't an ECU issue-LOL- I wasn't going to install the FBO stuff until I had things figured out) It seems happy with 28 initial, before it would start dropping rpm quickly at 28 and less. Even 26 now isn't bad... It idles much better and doesn't act like it's missing now. Idle speed in gear is sitting about 900rpm and I could probably even back it off a hair to close the butterflies a little more. Anyway thanks for chiming in everyone, now on to the power tuning!

 

[Wietse]

Cool!
Whats an FBO box?

 

[Kern Dog]

I'm sure that I am not the only one that appreciates when a member pops in to give updates on their original topic.
I've had a few ballast resistors go bad. There is probably a way to test them though, right? I still have trouble with electrical stuff. I wish I knew someone nearby that could provide guidance so I could feel more confident with my skills.
A few weeks ago when I was tinkering with the Charger, it started running rough and backfiring as I tried to accelerate. It turned out to be the cracked ballast below:

After I replaced it, I had another go bad. I ran a jumper wire from one ballast wire to the other and when it ran better, I knew that the ballast was bad. The one above is one of 20 or so that I have in my stash out back. Most don't have an open view of the spring or whatever they use to bridge between each side. It is obvious that this one is AFU but what about the others with the stuff covering it?
I guess you use an ohmmeter?

 

[Wietse]

Once you got a ballast that works 100%, disconnect all wiring from it and use a ohmmeter indeed and note the resistance it provides and write that down in the note book.
Whenever you suspect it being bad (but not broken yet) it might show a lot higher resistance causing problems.
I know these ballast provide an OEM look, but i am quite sure there will be more modern/more reliable options out there to replace these things.
Not sure what to look for as i am not 100% what the ballast does, my car does not have one anymore so i have not been checking these things.
As far as i remember it lowers the 12volts to around 9volts to feed the coil.

 

[Kern Dog]

The explanation I've read from Rick Ehrenberg was that the points and electronic systems used by Chrysler did not need a full 12 volts to work properly. The ballast resistor was designed in to extend the life of the parts in the system. I'd be willing to omit the ballast if I went with another system though. I don't care for being 100% factory correct. I also don't like the huge MSD box that looks like a small car battery bolted to the inner fender.

 

[Wietse]

I got the MSD RTR distributor, the coil i replaced with the MSD Blaster SS.
Nice small coil, no other components required as it is all inside the distributor.
No ballast resistor needed, i wired it so that the coil gets 12V direct from battery through a relay and the wire that used to feed the ballast operates that relay.
Powerfull spark and not much wiring.

 

[Kern Dog]

Really? No huge box like they always had before?

 

[Wietse]

This is my distributor. (for 426 - 440CID)
Has an integrated ignition module, so no external control boxes.
https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/distributors/chrysler/parts/8387

And this is the coil:
https://www.holley.com/products/ign...t_and_strip/street_and_strip_coils/parts/8207

Other then that there are a bunch of spark plug wires, for the rest nothing to see on ignition components.

 

[Kern Dog]

Thank you. That distributor sure is pricey though!

 

[Wietse]

Thank you. That distributor sure is pricey though!

True, keep in mind that you are buying a distributor and ignition control box i 1 unit.
Check the price for adding say a 6AL MSD box....would not be far off from this RTR unit.
More tidy, less wiring.
On my 440 the distributor just clears my aluminium Mopar Performance valve covers.

 

[beanhead]

Cool!
Whats an FBO box?

From 'Don' at 4secondsflat....just a little better version of the ECU, has a built-in adjustable rev limiter. Works with the Pertronix coil and no external ballast resistor. Plug & play with stock wiring.

 

[beanhead]

I'm sure that I am not the only one that appreciates when a member pops in to give updates on their original topic.
I've had a few ballast resistors go bad. There is probably a way to test them though, right? I still have trouble with electrical stuff. I wish I knew someone nearby that could provide guidance so I could feel more confident with my skills.
A few weeks ago when I was tinkering with the Charger, it started running rough and backfiring as I tried to accelerate. It turned out to be the cracked ballast below:

View attachment 799625
After I replaced it, I had another go bad. I ran a jumper wire from one ballast wire to the other and when it ran better, I knew that the ballast was bad. The one above is one of 20 or so that I have in my stash out back. Most don't have an open view of the spring or whatever they use to bridge between each side. It is obvious that this one is AFU but what about the others with the stuff covering it?
I guess you use an ohmmeter?

Yep, just disconnect the wiring plugs and ohm-check across the two terminals. It's a very simple resistive element is all so you should get a reading of .5 to 1.5 ohms, depending on the rating of what you have. If it's bad you'll read open (no continuity) or a short- closer to zero ohms.

 

[beanhead]

The explanation I've read from Rick Ehrenberg was that the points and electronic systems used by Chrysler did not need a full 12 volts to work properly. The ballast resistor was designed in to extend the life of the parts in the system. I'd be willing to omit the ballast if I went with another system though. I don't care for being 100% factory correct. I also don't like the huge MSD box that looks like a small car battery bolted to the inner fender.

Just for kicks I recently bypassed my ballast with the chrome box stock setup. The coil voltage increased to 12v at all times, and the coil got hotter faster. According to chrysler the ballast protected the contacts in the ignition system from premature wear due to the higher voltage, which makes sense...my engine didn't run any better or worse but I can see why they say the coil will fail sooner than later. I like to mount my boxes inside, and stood off the firewall a half inch or so opposite of where it would be if it was in the engine bay. Runs nice and cool and out of sight.