• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

Welders beware!! Read this......!!

Ghostrider 67

Jack Stand Racer #6..and proud of it!
FBBO Gold Member
Local time
5:30 AM
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
28,594
Reaction score
66,705
Location
Salisbury, Vermont
Hey all,

I saw this on another site and thought it deserved to be posted. Read it.

This was published in American Iron Magazine in the August 2009 issue.

Please read and pass it on.

Brake Cleaner = Phosgene Gas

By Steve 'brewdude' Garn

Yep, I thought this time I was a goner! How simple it was to get in trouble. Please take the time to read this and pass it on. After time we see and read many warning labels that we no longer heed. We buy chemicals and sprays at a local parts house and think to ourselves how can this be so bad health wise if we use it, I am buying it over the counter? So, this is how my story starts.

So I had a rush job welding 4 diesel semi tanks to patch that were pitted from road salt corrosion. Normally I spray a little carb cleaner, wipe it off, light the acetylene torch and preheat to get rid of any solvents. The gas station close to the shop was out of carb cleaner so I picked up a can of brake cleaner and went thru my regular routine. I even had the shop door open and the exhaust fan on. I started TIG welding (3pm Thursday) and had no problem in the beginning. Then, I started welding across a really pitted area and came across a couple of drops of cleaner still left in a deep pit. When I came close a small puff of white smoke puffed and immediately almost passed out. I then made it outside and sat for a while in the fresh air. After about 10 minutes I went to the office at the house and sat at the computer to check the warnings on the brake cleaner can when my whole left side started shaking for about 10-15 minutes. The can said ‘Vapors may decompose to harmful or fatal corrosive gases such as hydrogen chloride and possibly phosgene.



After reading about Hydrogen Chloride and then started researching phosgene. The chemical in the brake cleaner is Tetrachloroethylene. When this chemical is exposed with excessive heat and argon (used in MIG and TIG welding) it also produces phosgene.

Some Phosgene facts. Google Phosgene and read more!

It can be fatal with a dose as little as 4 parts per million.

Symptoms can be delayed from 6-48 hours after exposure.

There is NO antidote for Phosgene.

Long term effects can be chronic bronchitis and emphysema.





My breathing still was hard. So I called my wife in town (20 mins. away) and she said to call the ambulance which I didn't do. I waited at home for another hour and felt a little better so I decided to drive into town and meet my wife for supper and also living way out in the country brought me closer to the hospital in case I felt worse. The chlorine taste and smell in my nose and mouth was still very strong but went out later for pizza and then went to watch a basketball game. I felt a little better until I went outside after the game into the fresh air and then the smell and taste of chlorine almost overwhelmed me. I still went home hoping time would make me feel better.
About midnight (Thursday) I started coughing, my chest started hurting but thought that this would pass after a nights sleep. The next day (Friday)symptoms got worse and kidneys started hurting so I drank a bunch of liquids and cranberry juice. For 4 days pissed a lot of clear fluid with no smell. On Saturday I was really in a lot of pain. On Sunday I felt a little better and went to a friend’s house to watch the superbowl game. When I came home I felt very weak and tired. Monday I still was about the same. Tuesday I felt a little better and went into the shop for a couple of hours. Piss was very dark and a lot of smell this day. Still couldn't crap. Wednesday felt pretty good and I worked for about 5 hours. Thursday was even better day so I decided I would drive to Cincy with Chad to the VTwin expo on Friday. I felt okay but was very tired and weak. That Saturday I went out with friends but I didn’t feel quite right. I felt crappy on Sunday and left the expo about 2pm. The trip home was 375 miles and arrived home about 10pm that night feeling very tired. My wife made the comment that I looked awful (some home greeting). At midnight I lost all balance, was dazed, confused and could hardly talk so I then went to the Emergency room. My symptoms were Oxygen level low, sugar out of control, vertigo and I was hurting badly in my entire chest. They admitted me and put me in the ICU. They said my kidneys had probably shut down for those 4 days, my lungs were damaged so I had to be on oxygen and that I would have to be on insulin to keep my sugar in check. The doctor and neurologist called CDC to try to figure out what to do since there is no antidote for phosgene. Basically to try to rest and hope it gets better. After CT, MRI, EKGs, EEG and several other blood tests it looked like at this time there was no permanent damage. The EEG was taken because of the shaking earlier of my left side was a seizure caused by the chemicals. The EEG determined that there was no permanent damage. But the MRI showed fluid in sinuses and a build up of fluids near the brain. The gas scarred up my sinuses and then became infected causing these fluids. The 3 doctors I saw said I was really lucky to make it.
Now it has been 4 weeks. Another Doctor who specializes in toxology is now seeing me. He thinks I may have emphysema and chronic bronchitis. So at this time I am on nasal medicine and an inhaler. My sinuses are severely scarred and nose smell nerves are damaged. I still have that awful chlorine taste and smell. I am also going to ear, nose throat Dr on Thursday. I will also know later on any pancreas damage from the blood tests that I had taken. The insulin that I was taking had little effect on sugar and I can't keep it in control. So we are trying a different approach with Lantos (long lasting insulin) and other medicines. Sleeping is off and on and I will have a sleep test next Tuesday. I am feeling somewhat better but still very tired. This will go on for a while but I have full faith that all will be fine after time.



On some forums some suggest using a cleaner without this chemical. Other chemicals I found in other sprays in my shop include, xylene, toluene, methylene chloride, ketones, pentane, cyclohexanes, heptane, methyl ethyl ketone (MEK), methanol, tetrahydrofuran and petroleum napththa. There are actually more but you get my point, right? All the chemicals listed above have heath issues! So check your sprays and know the health hazards and their correct use.

Chris Maida has called and checked up on me several times. He said it is a shame I went thru this ordeal. But, I disagree. If it saves someone an illness or a death it is worth going thru this if this is what it takes.

Please read labels and warnings. Look up the chemicals you use. Also keep these sites and phone numbers nearby.

www.aapcc.org Phone # 1-800-222-1222

www.cdc.gov

Your local hospital phone #




Thanks to American Iron Magazine to publishing this!


Go out in yer shop and read all of the cans of stuff you have been using every day, be wise, stay alive.

Ghost...
 
wow ghost rider that is scary as you said you buy these over the counter and don't give a second thought .i had a friend when i was doing my auto upholstery apprenticeship who was exposed to contact adhesive working on buses all the time he didn't last the 4 year apprenticeship died from collapsed internal organs the kid didn't have a chance
 
I heard that a few years back when a member on the Jeep site was going to weld his spiders to make a lincoln locker and was warned about that
It is scary
 
Holy crap, I'm not ever buying that **** again! Even being equipped with this knowledge someone else like my son (when he gets older) could easily do that. Thanks for the heads up.
 
Scary ****. I know I've had the air pulled outta my lungs several times by using products in confined areas. Etching primer is a real scary thing without ventilation. Muriatic-acid is a killer, also.
 
Thanks for the reminder and info Ghostrider. There are many things in our shop that are waiting for us not to be paying attention. I have used brake cleaner and carb cleaner many times like you and my lungs can't stand the smell of any of them anymore. Paint thinners and the like have all taken their toll on me. Then like you, add heat and it is a death sentence.
 
yes that stuff is very dangerous. I used to use it to clean excess mortar from brick work. even diluted it's bad ****. Also MEK which is a cleaner/solvent. Brain damage from that as well, so bad the military has banned it's use.

Scary ****. I know I've had the air pulled outta my lungs several times by using products in confined areas. Etching primer is a real scary thing without ventilation. Muriatic-acid is a killer, also.
 
Any HVAC / refrigeration tech who has ever brazed refrigerant tubes using Freon based refrigerants knows this. However, there is OTHER stuff that can kill ya. Plating on steel, including but not limited to GALVANIZING.
 
Over the years a lot of products have been taken off the market or had their formulas changed because regulators have determined that they are unsafe to use for various reasons. Consequently, people assume that anything they buy in a retail store is safe to use under any conditions. Obviously this isn't true. If you don't take the time to familiarize yourself with the chemicals you are using in the shop, you are playing a deadly game. Read the warning labels on all of your automotive chemicals and follow the instructions religiously. Also, properly ventilate the area when you use them. Stay safe out there.
 
Thanks Ghostrider, that is very informative and I hope it gives a wake up call to all who might be exposed. I do hope your symptoms dissapear and there are no residual effects. I was a welder for 30 years in the oilfield and we did a tremendous amount of welding/brazing with nickle silver and tungston carbide. It wasn't until the late 90's that there started to be requirements for ventilation when we were made aware of the toxins we were being exposed to. Amoung others elements, zinc and cadmium are two of the heavy metals we were inhaling, both of which are accumulative in liver and kidneys. My mentor (with 30 years of this type work) did testing on himself through a hospital because of health problems as he was retiring to get a sense of his physical condition for insurance purposes. Large amounts of cadmium and zinc found and not a pretty diagnosis for his future. He lived to be 68. I urge all of you to be aware of what you breathe in and take precautions. The effects may not be as sudden and dramatic as Ghostrider has had to endure, but long term accumulation can rob you of your good health in later years and even shorten your life.
 
This is a story that happened to Steve Garn and not you, right?? Welding fumes alone is bad enough for ya. This article has been out there for some time now but it doesn't hurt to refresh it. Any product that is not intended to be used in welding most likely shouldn't be used. Cleaning stuff for welding should never be used with products that are not listed to be safe in in this craft. Most cleaning products for welding can be bought from a welding supply store but you still need to research them to make sure they are safe to be used. BTW, MEK was used for years by guys at the plant to clean their tools and most of them are gone now. NEVER use any cleaning solvents bare handed as your skin absorbs this stuff and over time, your organs will rebel against you......always wear protective gloves and gloves that are made for the type of product you're using.
 
I made myself incredibly ill at a young age from galvanized pipe, and I had been TOLD and "thought" I was being careful. This was just a simple, junk, cart for Oxy-Acet tanks made out of junk water pipe. Welded with an AC buzzbox. I was careful to get "upwind" and it was breezy, and outdoors.

That night my body ached terribly. Felt absolutely incredibly bad. I don't remember if I worked the next day or not. It may have been a weekend.
 
I made myself incredibly ill at a young age from galvanized pipe, and I had been TOLD and "thought" I was being careful. This was just a simple, junk, cart for Oxy-Acet tanks made out of junk water pipe. Welded with an AC buzzbox. I was careful to get "upwind" and it was breezy, and outdoors.

That night my body ached terribly. Felt absolutely incredibly bad. I don't remember if I worked the next day or not. It may have been a weekend.

Ahh, the Monday Morning Fever. Heard of it but fortunately I've never experienced it.
 
NEVER use any cleaning solvents bare handed as your skin absorbs this stuff and over time, your organs will rebel against you......always wear protective gloves and gloves that are made for the type of product you're using.

My 77 year-old dad recently went through a bout of kidney and bladder cancer. He lost one kidney and had to have tumors removed from his bladder but otherwise he lucked out and is going to be OK. The surgeon who operated on him asked me what kind of work my dad did and if he worked with a lot of solvents. I said no because my dad was always a businessman but now I'm remembering how when he would work on his cars or motorcycles he would always use gasoline to wash the grease off his hands.
 
LOL. I did not have this happen to me. The article starts by naming the guy who wrote it. He had all of this happen to HIM. I am fine. But thanks everyone.

Thanks Ghostrider, that is very informative and I hope it gives a wake up call to all who might be exposed. I do hope your symptoms dissapear and there are no residual effects. I was a welder for 30 years in the oilfield and we did a tremendous amount of welding/brazing with nickle silver and tungston carbide. It wasn't until the late 90's that there started to be requirements for ventilation when we were made aware of the toxins we were being exposed to. Amoung others elements, zinc and cadmium are two of the heavy metals we were inhaling, both of which are accumulative in liver and kidneys. My mentor (with 30 years of this type work) did testing on himself through a hospital because of health problems as he was retiring to get a sense of his physical condition for insurance purposes. Large amounts of cadmium and zinc found and not a pretty diagnosis for his future. He lived to be 68. I urge all of you to be aware of what you breathe in and take precautions. The effects may not be as sudden and dramatic as Ghostrider has had to endure, but long term accumulation can rob you of your good health in later years and even shorten your life.

- - - Updated - - -

This is a story that happened to Steve Garn and not you, right?? Welding fumes alone is bad enough for ya. This article has been out there for some time now but it doesn't hurt to refresh it. Any product that is not intended to be used in welding most likely shouldn't be used. Cleaning stuff for welding should never be used with products that are not listed to be safe in in this craft. Most cleaning products for welding can be bought from a welding supply store but you still need to research them to make sure they are safe to be used. BTW, MEK was used for years by guys at the plant to clean their tools and most of them are gone now. NEVER use any cleaning solvents bare handed as your skin absorbs this stuff and over time, your organs will rebel against you......always wear protective gloves and gloves that are made for the type of product you're using.

right, NOT ME...lol. This guy had this all happen to HIM. I am fine.
 
I've been in the paint biz for over 35 years. In the beginning, we used to pump varsol and kerosene for customers. Never wore gloves or any breathing protection. Also sold a lot of cleaning fluids containing 111-trichlorethane and repaired spray guns that used it (for the clothing biz). Again, bare handed, no mask or respirator. Now, I'm hypersensitive to chemical solvents and smells. Acetone gives me an instantaneous pounding headache. I banned nail polish and nail polish remover in my house (contains acetone). My wife and daughter weren't too happy. I came home one Sunday night from a weekend away. I Walked upstairs and got an instant headache. I yelled at my daughter, did you use nail polish in the house? She said yes, but 3 days ago, how can you tell? I told her I smelled it right away and it gave me a headache. She always thought I was bullshitting about it and just being a pain in the ***. She never used it again.
 
I work in the chemical industry and have had first hand experience with phosgene. A colleague was working in the fume hood next to me with phosgene which he was using as a reagent. He accidentally breathed it in while transferring to a gas-tight vessel and was instantly knocked to the ground unconscious. Fortunately he survived.

Carb cleaner typically contains chlorinated solvents which are all largely carcinogenic to different degrees; methylene chloride is generally the "safest" of these. In the old days it contained carbon tetrachloride which is a known carcinogen, but this has largely been banned. Great solvent though! EPA and OSHA/NIOSH regulations have their benefits...
 
Auto Transport Service
Back
Top