Wrong starter nose on my 66 Hemi satellite

[AR67GTX]

Prior related thread: Learned a few 66 Hemi specific and otherwise facts from Brewers Transmissions the other day.

After getting my flywheel with new ring gear back from the machine shop I checked out my starter motor and as I feared my direct drive starter appears to have a 67 or later nose on it and does not full engage the flywheel being slightly short. The ring gear width measures .355” and from bench measurements the starter gear engages approximately .274” of it. It works but not ideal and probably why my old ring gear had some damage on the engine side. I can see on the old ring gear that the gear pattern covered only about 3/4 on the ring gear width.

This is a remanufactured starter with a 000 case (probably 6 cylinder) and a nose with only a 4 digit number that doesn’t match anything - probably an aftermarket piece.

I will probably put a WTB add in for a genuine 1966 Hemi nose but I doubt it’s going to turn any thing up and I hate to have to search out a mini starter that will work and fit. So my question concerns possibly modifying the nose and gear that I have. May be a stupid question but here goes. There is a thrust washer ahead of the starter gear that I assume takes the thrust from the solenoid and serves as a shim. If I took that thrust shim washer and had about 1/16” - 3/32” machined off of it, would the solenoid be able to thrust the starter gear that far further forward into the ring gear??

Or is this a rabbit hole?

 

[Don Frelier]

Why not get another washer and try it?

 

[AR67GTX]

That’s probably where I’m headed but I thought I would ask first to see if there was something not quite obvious that would not work.

 

[AR67GTX]

Looks like the “not quite obvious” part is that what appears to be a thick washer is actually recessed on the back side to slide over and secure a “C” clip in place. So it’s not all that thick actually. I guess an alternate approach would be to have a machine shop machine a recess in the front of the gear that would allow it to ride over the washer 1/16-3/32”.

The FSM describes a procedure to adjust the throw of the gear by sliding the whole solenoid assembly forward or backwards on the main case. I’ll have to look at that though as I don’t remember the solenoid mounting holes being slotted.

 

[Don Frelier]

Looks like the “not quite obvious” part is that what appears to be a thick washer is actually recessed on the back side to slide over and secure a “C” clip in place. So it’s not all that thick actually. I guess an alternate approach would be to have a machine shop machine a recess in the front of the gear that would allow it to ride over the washer 1/16-3/32”.

The FSM describes a procedure to adjust the throw of the gear by sliding the whole solenoid assembly forward or backwards on the main case. I’ll have to look at that though as I don’t remember the solenoid mounting holes being slotted.

I've had several dogs since I've taken one apart.

 

[oldbee]

It’s been a long, long time but what about slotting the solenoid holes? 1/16 ain’t much, might be possible.. Good luck

 

[AR67GTX]

Not enough meat in the gear to have a recess machined to ride over the washer. I’m also thinking best approach is to check the solenoid throw for max reach and call it good. The only time I ever heard it clashing was when I was bumping the motor to set valves. Possibly the battery voltage got a little low. Normal starting has been fine.

Thanks

 

[AR67GTX]

Looked closer at the solenoid (I had a thermal blanket wrapped around the starter) and the 2 screws holding it were both loose. So I marked it, put some blue Loctite on the screws, pushed it back somewhere around a 1/16” and tightened it down good. Bottoming the solenoid manually, looks like this should ensure full travel on the starter gear. I think that’s about the best I can do without spending a bunch more money. Let it lie until it’s a problem and move on to getting my clutch and transmission back in.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

How thick is the bolt flange? It looks like it's 7/16-1/2" thick? You could cut that .100 and the gears would mesh fully...

 

[AR67GTX]

The bolt flange of the starter nose to bellhousing? I thought about that but I wasn’t sure how difficult that would be for a machinist to do? A car buddy of mine has a son with a small machine shop. I might ask him about it.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

The bolt flange of the starter nose to bellhousing? I thought about that but I wasn’t sure how difficult that would be for a machinist to do? A car buddy of mine has a son with a small machine shop. I might ask him about it.

I believe the direct drive starters are concentric from the motor flange to the drive nose area... If that's the case it would be super easy... If it's not it still wouldn't be to difficult to dial in on a four jaw.... Throw it in a lathe, dial it in, use a live center on the outboard end & cut .100 off the face... Pretty easy & as long as there's room for the nose of the starter to go in .100 you're golden....

 

[AR67GTX]

I believe the direct drive starters are concentric from the motor flange to the drive nose area... If that's the case it would be super easy... If it's not it still wouldn't be to difficult to dial in on a four jaw.... Throw it in a lathe, dial it in, use a live center on the outboard end & cut .100 off the face... Pretty easy & as long as there's room for the nose of the starter to go in .100 you're golden....

I’m not much on machining equipment but I’ll get with my buddy this weekend and see what he thinks. I’ll set it on the bell housing first and make sure the nose will clear - pretty sure it will.

Thanks

 

[AR67GTX]

I believe the direct drive starters are concentric from the motor flange to the drive nose area... If that's the case it would be super easy... If it's not it still wouldn't be to difficult to dial in on a four jaw.... Throw it in a lathe, dial it in, use a live center on the outboard end & cut .100 off the face... Pretty easy & as long as there's room for the nose of the starter to go in .100 you're golden....

My buddy says his son has the equipment to mill the nose and thinks he has done one before (most likely a Ford). So, I’m going to remove the nose today and hand it over to them. The bell housing has plenty of clearance around the nose for a .10” cut. Thanks for encouraging me to check that solution out.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Mill, Lathe, whatever solution the man running the machines choses, it's not a hard job... Glad you have a workable solution..

 

[dadsbee]

I'd just clamp it in the Bridgeport vice, 1" cutter and free hand it... but I'm a hack!

 

[1 Wild R/T]

I'd just clamp it in the Bridgeport vice, 1" cutter and free hand it... but I'm a hack!

If I were gonna do it on the mill, I'd run a stud down through the front bushing to my rotary table, nail it in & hit it with a fly cutter... But I think it would be easier on the lathe... And I too am a hack...

 

[Dragon Slayer]

I am pretty sure I have a 66 nose. I have several 66-69 hemi starters. The whole issue is that the ring gear on the 66 only was on the clutch side of the flywheel flange. So the starter gear needs to go deeper in. The 66 nose is 3/16" longer. In 67 they changed the flywheel so the gear rest on the motor side of the flange. (Probably so as the starter engages the ring it doesn't try to knock it off the flange). What part number is on your nose?

Additionally, regardless of your car year knowing what year flywheel you have is more important. Then matching correct starter nose.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Sounds like the better fix is a 67 flywheel...

 

[AR67GTX]

I am pretty sure I have a 66 nose. I have several 66-69 hemi starters. The whole issue is that the ring gear on the 66 only was on the clutch side of the flywheel flange. So the starter gear needs to go deeper in. The 66 nose is 3/16" longer. In 67 they changed the flywheel so the gear rest on the motor side of the flange. (Probably so as the starter engages the ring it doesn't try to knock it off the flange). What part number is on your nose?

Additionally, regardless of your car year knowing what year flywheel you have is more important. Then matching correct starter nose.

View attachment 1976631

Thanks for the offer but my starter nose should be in the hands of a machinist by now who is going to remove .10” from the bell-housing mating surface. From everything I have measured and in looking at the wear pattern on the old ring gear that should put it in full contact. There is only a 4-digit part number on the nose that doesn’t correlate to a part number for a 66 or for a 67-69 nose. So I figure it’s a later service part probably used by rebuilders.

New flywheel is not a good option at his time. The 66 one is in good shape, newly balanced and has a new ring gear installed. That would be about $250 down the drain on the old one on top of $500 + shipping for a new flywheel and Brewers is out of stock on them right now. Plus another $160 or so to balance another flywheel.

A friend of a friend (who I help with his restoration work) doing a little machining for me is looking like a win right now.

 

[Dragon Slayer]

If you know the number it would be useful to know that # that correlates to the 66 year. So if you can post it it would be helpful