What is your opinion on VIN swaps?

[Mopar Hunter]

Exactly what I'm faced with. Thanks for the
link.
Though I've not done any vin swapping, I do
have a situation where the serial number
tag was stolen from my truck cab during
transport. I reported the theft to local LEO'S
and they more or less confirmed that there

You’re build would not be considered vin swapping, that’s hot rodding through and through.
Nice job btw.

 

[chtampa]

Is buying a Dynacorp body and moving the VIN Tag legal? Ethical?
Would cutting out a LR Quarter and a Radiator Support be considered modifying VIN Numbers? Can you renumber the replacements legally?
Can you buy a Hemi Car without the engine and then report the engine stolen and wait for the engine to surface so you can get it for free? Do you have a receipt for every engine block you have purchased?
The list can go on and on, "Tastes good, Less filling".

Laws are guidelines just like religious books and not intended to be used verbatim. When building a car have CYA documentation. People are getting titles to untitled vehicles by parking it in a lot for 30 days, is this any more legitimate? Race cars have all the numbers removed and then some day a person wants to make it street legal and rebuild it with repop tags. Why should they not be able to do that? "Legal" has its issues, as does "Ethical".

 

[440 PHIXX]

Here’s David Freiburger take on VIN swapping.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mo...-swapping-recreating-wrecked-road-runner/amp/

I remember reading this. And agreeing with it. Although a Satellite is RH, and I’ve been told on here that the coupe post is welded in. The VIN tells the story. “R”= Belvedere the second digit is the “price class”. The factory just installed different parts on the same body. A factory hot rod if you will. And probably why on HAMB and Jalopnik they don’t like cars that are ‘64 and newer. That’s OK. I like the ‘64-‘72 cars.

 

[Skytrooper]

https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...eed_ranking_signature":"5767120117557100544"}

There ya go...a DIY '71 Challenger kit ! You know somebody will do it and scrap the carcass and use the VIN plate, fender tag and whatever else on a different, better body.

 

[Nate S]

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/636204014249833/?ref=browse_tab&referral_code=marketplace_general&referral_story_type=general&tracking={"qid":"-7082855578050040864","mf_story_key":"991788358863874590","commerce_rank_obj":"{\"target_id\":991788358863874590,\"target_type\":6,\"primary_position\":11,\"ranking_signature\":3923735452787408896,\"commerce_channel\":501,\"value\":0.00017241978230818,\"upsell_type\":3523,\"grouping_info\":null}","lightning_feed_qid":"-7082862450107099545","lightning_feed_ranking_signature":"5767120117557100544"}
View attachment 1221286 View attachment 1221285 View attachment 1221284

There ya go...a DIY '71 Challenger kit ! You know somebody will do it and scrap the carcass and use the VIN plate, fender tag and whatever else on a different, better body.

In truth, I’d rather have someone do that and not lose another challenger to non-existence. If the job is so freaking good that you can’t tell, then I guess you can’t tell.

 

[ckessel]

At the body shop I used to manage we would cut the VIN tags/decals out of the affected panel and tell the customer that the piece needed to stay with the vehicle in the glove box/console etc. This was on newer vehicles, say mid 80's and newer. You could not buy replacement tags from the manufactures so this is what we did so if there was any law issues, the matching number was in the vehicle. We never got into dash/firewall areas as if it was hit that hard, it got totaled. We did several frames too and same story. On older stuff it will be different. I know people have run into issues, usually resolved, when the vehicle they have is built from multiple donors. May be worth talking to the local DMV or law enforcement. Of course the information you get from either will depend on the knowledge of said official.

 

[horace]

Swapping VINs is illegal plus there are other places on the auto recording the VIN. Why go thru fraud, atty billing, stress etc.

 

[70chall440]

First off, those who are going to do a VIN swap are not coming onto a forum to try and get support, they are just going to do it. In fact there are a few very high dollar cars out there that are suspected of exactly this activity. When there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars involved someone is going to try and cash in. If people can counterfeit $100 bills they can do a car to include the tags and stampings.

So to the actual question at hand, is VIN swapping illegal? Yes according to the federal government. Is VIN swapping unethical or immoral? I would say this is much more of a complicated issue but on the face yes however I do believe that there are situations where it might be a necessity. Typically when this subject comes up, everyone automatically things Hemi or 6 pack cars (or something equally rare and valuable), however consider this hypothetical situation;

You have 2 vehicles;
1. one is a run of the mill 383 (or even 318) 68 Charger (using this because of how desirable they all seem to be nowadays) but it is really rusty, like no frames, floors, etc. but it does have a good drive train, dash, seats, etc. You have a clean title and all the numbers are there.
2. the other car is solid but missing the dash (VIN plate) because it was a parts car. It too was a basic car but everything is rust free and usable, no collision damage or anything. You do not have a title for this car because it was a parts car but you do have a bill of sale and it is legitimately your car.

So, let's just say that it isnt an option in your state get a state issued VIN from your local Hwy Patrol/DMV. So you have 2 cars that are yours, both cars could in fact make one good one but you would have to swap the VIN. Now I know the hardcore guys will scream immediately that this is wrong, you should burn in hell, etc. but I don't think it is as simple as that.

 

[1STMP]

Those that are in the business for profit side
of this issue have made it difficult for your
every day guy (gal) who's just trying to
complete a passion. The two collide with
laws enacted to curtail the former. Honesty
is the best policy when dealing with Johnny
Law.

 

[68BabyBlue]

First off, those who are going to do a VIN swap are not coming onto a forum to try and get support, they are just going to do it. In fact there are a few very high dollar cars out there that are suspected of exactly this activity. When there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars involved someone is going to try and cash in. If people can counterfeit $100 bills they can do a car to include the tags and stampings.

So to the actual question at hand, is VIN swapping illegal? Yes according to the federal government. Is VIN swapping unethical or immoral? I would say this is much more of a complicated issue but on the face yes however I do believe that there are situations where it might be a necessity. Typically when this subject comes up, everyone automatically things Hemi or 6 pack cars (or something equally rare and valuable), however consider this hypothetical situation;

You have 2 vehicles;
1. one is a run of the mill 383 (or even 318) 68 Charger (using this because of how desirable they all seem to be nowadays) but it is really rusty, like no frames, floors, etc. but it does have a good drive train, dash, seats, etc. You have a clean title and all the numbers are there.
2. the other car is solid but missing the dash (VIN plate) because it was a parts car. It too was a basic car but everything is rust free and usable, no collision damage or anything. You do not have a title for this car because it was a parts car but you do have a bill of sale and it is legitimately your car.

So, let's just say that it isnt an option in your state get a state issued VIN from your local Hwy Patrol/DMV. So you have 2 cars that are yours, both cars could in fact make one good one but you would have to swap the VIN. Now I know the hardcore guys will scream immediately that this is wrong, you should burn in hell, etc. but I don't think it is as simple as that.

This post reminds me of hypothetical scenarios presented during my law school days. They were meant to provoke analysis of situations for which there were not cut and dried answers. This is sure one of them. Intent is an element of criminal behavior, the greater level, the higher the penalty. But lack of intent won't shield a perpetrator completely in many instances. The issue with this stuff, is what happens after the swap took place, and what the expectations of the parties are.

Personally, I have only bought Mopars with solid histories and paper trails, not out of snobbery, but seeking to avoid issues at a later time. I have been unfortunate to have purchased two Brand X vehicles in years past that had title issues (fortunately resolved), and don't even want to contemplate the can of worms that might accompany dealing with a swapped VIN.

 

[AR67GTX]

It might be several owners down the road before some VIN swaps are uncovered. Not sure where that leaves them legally except in an awkward place.

 

[6pktgo]

Only have one word, NO !!!

Take something & make it or build it your way, no problem , but never swap number tags to profit & that's usually the way it goes.
My 5 cents, no pennies up here !!

 

[70chall440]

Only have one word, NO !!!

Take something & make it or build it your way, no problem , but never swap number tags to profit & that's usually the way it goes.
My 5 cents, no pennies up here !!

Hmm kind of like "just say no to drugs" and "abstain from pre-marital sex".... LOL

Its easy to say no, but there are situations where it is not as easy as that IMO. I have never swapped a VIN, never saw a need or was put in a situation where it was even considered. This is mainly due to the fact that back in the day (late 70's, early 80's) Mopars were not worth much and if you had one car that had good parts you just moved them over to the car with the good bones without a thought to the VIN or what it meant (this is one of the reasons there are so many 440 E bodies running around).

However (and as mentioned) given the value of some of run of the mill cars (G2 Chargers especially), in the right situation (such as the hypothetical one I offered) I cannot say I would not do it. As discussed, the intent is not to deceive, rather it is to get one good car onto the road in no better or different way than it was built originally.

Obviously this is an endless discussion like so many and everyone has to decide for themselves what they would or would not do in any given situation. Fortunately the vast majority of us will never been faced with having to try and decide whether to do something like or not. My main point is "never say never" or blatantly condemn anyone who asks the question or openly discusses the issue.

Just for the record, I do not think anyone would (openly) support the stereotype VIN swapping which is taking the VIN/numbers off of a valuable car and transplanting them onto a lesser valuable car for the sake of making money (i.e. Intent) and anyone who is/has done this is not going to be stupid enough to come onto a forum or even state in public that they have done it.

 

[440 PHIXX]

Hmm kind of like "just say no to drugs" and "abstain from pre-marital sex".... LOL

Its easy to say no, but there are situations where it is not as easy as that IMO. I have never swapped a VIN, never saw a need or was put in a situation where it was even considered. This is mainly due to the fact that back in the day (late 70's, early 80's) Mopars were not worth much and if you had one car that had good parts you just moved them over to the car with the good bones without a thought to the VIN or what it meant (this is one of the reasons there are so many 440 E bodies running around).

However (and as mentioned) given the value of some of run of the mill cars (G2 Chargers especially), in the right situation (such as the hypothetical one I offered) I cannot say I would not do it. As discussed, the intent is not to deceive, rather it is to get one good car onto the road in no better or different way than it was built originally.

Obviously this is an endless discussion like so many and everyone has to decide for themselves what they would or would not do in any given situation. Fortunately the vast majority of us will never been faced with having to try and decide whether to do something like or not. My main point is "never say never" or blatantly condemn anyone who asks the question or openly discusses the issue.

Just for the record, I do not think anyone would (openly) support the stereotype VIN swapping which is taking the VIN/numbers off of a valuable car and transplanting them onto a lesser valuable car for the sake of making money (i.e. Intent) and anyone who is/has done this is not going to be stupid enough to come onto a forum or even state in public that they have done it.

Only... not many knew where the “hidden” body numbers were or bothered changing them. So unless they got restamped. You would notice. Like that hoovie guy who says his Hemi 4 speed Superbird is real, but has no matching body numbers.

 

[70chall440]

Those "hidden" body numbers have been known for a long time so I am not convinced that this was an issue at all. I can only speak for myself and say that back in the day me and my Mopar buddies didn't give a crap about the VIN, we looked at what the car had or didn't have. A 440 E body was a 440 E body, didn't matter what the VIN said.

 

[HawkRod]

I think there are situations today where fraud is suspected where none was ever intended. Potential case in point below.

Details on my 73 Road Runner: It is an original 340, 727 Slap Stik, console, 3.55 car with A/C, power brakes and power steering. Entered our family in 1979 as a used car simply to drive. My first car I ever had and I still have it.

With that history, here is some more: In the late 80s I wanted to "restore" the car. I had very limited budget but did what I could. I bought a California Satellite that had essentially a perfect, rust free, body. I was told to VIN swap and just use that body since it would be cheaper than fixing up my Road Runner. I refused and fixed my Road Runner using quarter panels, fenders, doors (but not the front radiator support) and whatever was in better shape from the donor Satellite. (Legalities aside, my Road Runner now, again, has some rust issues, including in the cowl, so maybe I should have just swapped VINs??? )
Bottom line is no one cared or even thought about "hidden" VIN numbers back then. Also, when I redid my dash, the black paint was coming off the VIN. So I polished the VIN tag to a bright shiny stainless steel and used regular old rivets to install it back on the car! But this was the late 80s and early 90s. Back then no one even thought about all this stuff.

Fast forward to today: Someone looking at my car would likely be highly suspicious of the VIN on the dash. They wouldn't find the proper hidden VIN in the trunk gutter either. Is my car a fraud? Did I do anything illegal? I certainly don't think so. But today's hyper sensitive environment would likely make a big deal out of this if I did try to sell it.

Finally, all this is mute anyway because the car is a member of the family. I could give two s**ts about the value of the car. I have it to enjoy, and that's what I'll continue to do.

 

[Skytrooper]

OK, as the devil's advocate, the question arises, what would you do if you realized your car had that done previous to your purchase ? I am sure there are cars out there that fit this description. What happens if you have one of these cars and you unfortunately pass away ? Will your wife go to jail when she sells it as part of your estate, not knowing the VIN issue ?

 

[440 PHIXX]

Those "hidden" body numbers have been known for a long time so I am not convinced that this was an issue at all. I can only speak for myself and say that back in the day me and my Mopar buddies didn't give a crap about the VIN, we looked at what the car had or didn't have. A 440 E body was a 440 E body, didn't matter what the VIN said.

I’d heard about them sometime in the late nineties. I never checked my cars because I bough them in the early 80’s, and knew they had never been wrecked. I didn’t check until 2017. Just as I thought, factory. More was made about the engine block number matching back in the nineties.

 

[6pktgo]

I think I may have perverbibly kicked over a can of worms & am trying to put them back with a spoon, sorry.

I hear you about back in the day , we built what we could afford to build & drove the **** out of them !!!

This is a topic that goes around and around, some places say it fine, some it's not ??? Theres a ton of variables !! It brings me to mind of the Johnny Cash song !!

 

[HawkRod]

OK, as the devil's advocate, the question arises, what would you do if you realized your car had that done previous to your purchase ? I am sure there are cars out there that fit this description. What happens if you have one of these cars and you unfortunately pass away ? Will your wife go to jail when she sells it as part of your estate, not knowing the VIN issue ?

There is nothing to "realize" later. My VIN clearly has been removed from the car and reinstalled. Any buyer can see that, even without ANY accompanying information. So if my car was sold 10 times after I sold it, it still shows that same way.

The car's history is what it is. I have the same title from 40 some years ago, and lots of pictures from my limited "restoration" I did in the late 80 and late 90s; it's pretty obvious I have owned it a very long time. If I ever did sell the car, it would be with all the history and information about it (and let's face it, the car is FAR from being a highly desirable Mopar - it's not a Hemi 'Cuda convertible). If I pass away and my wife or kids go to sell the car then all that information is still available. Personally, I think it's worse to try and hide any of its history - if I do that then I'm entering into fraud territory. Should I buy the special transfer decal and rivets to fix the VIN? Does that make it better? Assuming that's worse, then what do I do, just crush the damn thing???

So I guess my choice is to either crush it or drive it and represent it for what it is. I can't go back in time so I'll choose the latter...