Road-racing Engine

[Grabinov911]

OK so a buddy of mine ran the Silver State Classic (in a 65 Mustang) and I can't get it out of my head!

My 70RR resto has been going along great and the car runs well on the stock 383 (only 50k miles) and the 3.23 rear end. I've got it all set up with Firm Feel suspension parts because I'm a handling geek - not so much because I thought I needed them, but maybe I do...

I just bought, magnafluxed and sonic checked, standard bore, 1970 440HP block to use to build a new motor for the car. Again, not cause it NEEDS a new one, but because I've never built a car engine before (done motorcycles) and I've always wanted to. I have a local machine/hot rod shop to help me with the build. They are used to building hot rod "drag" engines, and they build some pretty hot inboard boat engines.

Question: If I want to build my 440 for roadracing, or going really fast (about 100mph average) in a relatively straight line over a long distance (90 miles), what do I tell my hot rod shop guy about cam selection, compression, carb specs, etc.? I'm guessing this is a somewhat different engine than one build to run for 11 seconds from idle to 8,000 rpm, more like a boat engine which runs high rpm under heavy loads for long periods of time...

Do I need to switch to a manual trans? Or an overdrive (probably)?

Greg

 

[68 HEMI GTS]

shouldn't need to much special to run the 100mph class, just a road gear and a good navigator. my buddy and i ran the silver state challenge when we were kids back in 2001. drove a 4x4 chevy truck from michigan out there and ran the 95mph class and won with nothing special. that being said, good rods and a good oil system would go along way with a 440. no need to get real crazy on the cam. your thinking is right with the boat comparison. having done it i think a manual trans would be a advantage, od would be good but not necessary depending on tire height and final gearing. i'd try to set it up so your not turning crazy rpm's to run your average mph. try to keep it at a mid of the road rpm.

 

[RustyRatRod]

I forget his screen name, but one of the guys over on FABO HAS a road race car with a big block. He regularly spanks the competition, too. Vipers and all. You might nose around over there and find out who it is. I remember he is a very nice guy and willing to share info.

I found him. his screen name is tooslow. Here's one of his threads.

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=189119

Go over there and PM him. He can point you in the right direction.

 

[Supershafts]

What you want to do isn't to involved as there aren't any if at all any real corners of concern, like you aren't going to be at 170mph and braking for a 30 mph corner and only touching the brakes a few hundred feet before having to be at that 30mph speed or blow the turn.

Your concerns for the motor are temps, oiling temps and coolant, and you probably want to look at those areas seriously may want to use a restrictor rather than a stat, again all depending what class you want to be in also and what you make for power will make what you need for cooling and where you'll be holding that motor, will it be cruising at 4500 or 5800 or 6200, your gearing is also something you want to look at .
I used to do a similar thing over a 150 mile course where it would be covered in 1 hour 19 mins was my best time, pretty much it was a a steady 130/140 mph, i was using a 400 motor, a large 4 core radiator, small oil cooler in a dual filter system, and a good trans cooler, the motor was using a aftermarket cast piston, factory rods and crank, extensively modified 915 head, adjustable vt , stainless valves and a comp cam which was somewhere in the 550 lift and 240 duration range, super comp headers and torker intake, what comes back to most was the mileage at that speed was all on one tank, i believe it didn't even use a full tank.

On that car it was lowered considerably, bigger front and rear sway bars, i forget exactly which t-bars but i believe it were the .970 bar. i had 295-50 15s on each wheel and a little more positive caster somewhere between 2.5 and 3 degrees and you want a slight negative camber of 1 degree.
If this was more road racing with serious corners then you want to get into 2 to 4 degrees.

Don't forget your trans and rear, that rear is gonna get hot temps, a larger AL cover unless you have a 8.75 then you kinda don't have any simple add-ons other than changing the oil and using a good syn.

In my road race car which i used to visit bridgehampton in the motor is down 2.5" and back 5", she uses nylon for bushings, and graphite and solid links, sliders instead of shackles which i would put in your car even for street use the slider is better than shackles it adds stability
.

 

[super-bee_ski]

OK so a buddy of mine ran the Silver State Classic (in a 65 Mustang) and I can't get it out of my head!

My 70RR resto has been going along great and the car runs well on the stock 383 (only 50k miles) and the 3.23 rear end. I've got it all set up with Firm Feel suspension parts because I'm a handling geek - not so much because I thought I needed them, but maybe I do...

I just bought, magnafluxed and sonic checked, standard bore, 1970 440HP block to use to build a new motor for the car. Again, not cause it NEEDS a new one, but because I've never built a car engine before (done motorcycles) and I've always wanted to. I have a local machine/hot rod shop to help me with the build. They are used to building hot rod "drag" engines, and they build some pretty hot inboard boat engines.

Question: If I want to build my 440 for roadracing, or going really fast (about 100mph average) in a relatively straight line over a long distance (90 miles), what do I tell my hot rod shop guy about cam selection, compression, carb specs, etc.? I'm guessing this is a somewhat different engine than one build to run for 11 seconds from idle to 8,000 rpm, more like a boat engine which runs high rpm under heavy loads for long periods of time...

Do I need to switch to a manual trans? Or an overdrive (probably)?

Greg

Gregg,
You talking about Dugan's ??

 

[Grabinov911]

No it's not Duggan's car. That's an engine shop out in the IE right? I know we've said this before, but we gotta compare notes sometime Ski. I really think we may know some of the same folks. I have a long lost cousin named Joe Superbeesky, but he spelled his name with a "y". That's not you is it? It can't be... Kidding. LOL...

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks gents,

The car IS an 8.75 rear end car with a factory 489 case and open diff. Probably doesnt't make a huge difference in a straight line, but im gonna change that over to a limited slip - probably pick one up at Spring Fling, which is near home for me.

I have gone Firm Feel all the way w the suspension so far and i'm really impressed with it. It's good to hear that Supershafts did a similar run on 15's because i have a nice set of fat 15 inch wheels on there now, and i'm not dying to buy another set of wheels. Will need some speed rated tires though, not sure the BFG Radial's will hold up to that sustained speed.

I don't have plans to lower the car yet but will tape the seams, etc. if need be. Definitely gonna need some new door seals too!

 

[MarPar]

sweeeeet. subscribed...:happy1:

 

[Supershafts]

Will need some speed rated tires though, not sure the BFG Radial's will hold up to that sustained speed.

I don't have plans to lower the car yet but will tape the seams, etc. if need be. Definitely gonna need some new door seals too!

I had H rated tires
.

 

[Grabinov911]

I had H rated tires
.

Thanks Supershafts. I was looking at the options for spring sliders at your recommendation. From the pics of the Afco, it looks like they are welded directly to the frame rail and place the spring pivot bolt only about an inch from the frame. How do you replace the 3+ inches of "lift" that the stock shackle gives you in the stock suspension? Do you use a different leaf spring, or is that how you got the car lowered so far?

You don't have a picture of that car do you?

 

[Supershafts]

Oh that helped lower the car, but i went further than the slider allowed , i went directly against the frame rail with the slider.

I used the 3600 SS spring and then modified it further to what i wanted, remember the rear half or portion (everything behind the axle) really deals with ride, and everything in front of the axle handles the power, so you can make changes to the springs that can effect one and not make the other suffer.
I can get some pics for you

 

[99ss]

I would go with as many cubic inches as you can afford at a proper compression ration for the octane gas you intend to run. Keeping the rpms lower is better reliabilty and durability. Dry sump would be nice as well. Oil, trans, rear end coolers. Best/biggest rad you can fit in there.. I like to use Ron Davis. If you dont go dry sump then an oil accumulator .. protect your investment.. a proper roadrace engine costs a bit of money so protecting it is a good idea. Proper gears to keep rpms down as well is a must... you dont use 4:10's...LOL

 

[Grabinov911]

Thanks 99ss

My current plan is to take the spare 440 block which I got for this project and add a Scat crank and rods to make a 505 stroker at .030 over. That adds a little stroke to the stock spec but not so much that I loose the ability to turn high revs. I think if I do it right I can get 9.5 to one (for California 91 octane gas) with a good set of aluminum heads (thinking Edlebrock of some type) and then a mellow cam to allow the car to pull reasonably well off idle but turn 4,000 rpm all day. My guess is that this is conservatively a 475 horse combo in a real gentle sleeper motor. I was looking at the Moroso road racing oil pans which have a wide tray at the bottom and baffles to keep the oil near the pickup. I really like the oil accumulator idea. Excellent. Less complex and expensive than a dry sump.

Now I just need THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. A little at a time I guess...

I agree - put coolers on everything (experience with towing) - and any opportunity to get that oil filter out from under the engine and horizontal is worth pursuing! I've never put a cooler on a rear end before though. It would be interesting to learn how to do that - with a pump?

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks 99ss

My current plan is to take the spare 440 block which I got for this project and add a Scat crank and rods to make a 505 stroker at .030 over. That adds a little stroke to the stock spec but not so much that I loose the ability to turn high revs. I think if I do it right I can get 9.5 to one (for California 91 octane gas) with a good set of aluminum heads (thinking Edlebrock of some type) and then a mellow cam to allow the car to pull reasonably well off idle but turn 4,000 rpm all day. My guess is that this is conservatively a 475 horse combo in a real gentle sleeper motor. I was looking at the Moroso road racing oil pans which have a wide tray at the bottom and baffles to keep the oil near the pickup. I really like the oil accumulator idea. Excellent. Less complex and expensive than a dry sump.

Now I just need THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. A little at a time I guess...

I agree - put coolers on everything (experience with towing) - and any opportunity to get that oil filter out from under the engine and horizontal is worth pursuing! I've never put a cooler on a rear end before though. It would be interesting to learn how to do that - with a pump?

 

[Supershafts]

A b/rb can be used similar to a dry sump and use different p/u's and multiple and cap off the internal p/u, which i would do regardless, the only issue would be the oil storage.
You can add spray bars for the valve train, and really the difference between a road race motor and any other motor is breathers, oil coolers, oiling the springs to keep them cooler since they are running hours on end beyond 4000 rpm, oil volume and capacity, a drag car you'll play games with the least amount of oil needed, a street car you'll use what you need, a road motor you want more than you need to have and cool it.

The rear gear cooler is only something to think about if you build a killer rpm road motor and use a big gear , which then you need either a end yoke with a pulley and a single stage oil pump with a pulley , an lines, little cooler kinda expensive or see tilton or another electric style pump, with what you're doing you'll probably not going near more than 3.90 depending what trans and tire height and shouldn't need a gear cooler.

If you are looking to go beyond 120mph pin the hood at both front corners using a pin or cam locks or dzus style, aero becomes something to think about after 80 mph where it starts to take effects on the cars stability and body panels, restricting air to places and blocking off the nose in areas and keeping things held down.
Every car is going to have a issue with the hood from packing air underneath and lifting it to the resistance trying to peel the corners back, usually a issue after 120 mph. My jeep was particularly bad with the hood and needed help at the corners also and it would start lifting earlier than the cars.
Another positive piece are air damns, the jeep benefited greatly from the air dam.


Don't use a flat cam.

 

[Grabinov911]

Supershafts: Last night I put my car on a trailer. It should be at your house next week!

Awesome man. I'm printing out this string so I don't forget anything. I have a set of hood pins for the car and I'm trying to decide where to put them. That's easy enough though. Just have to set my mind to it...

 

[Supershafts]

Lol i got a 65 belvedere coming here this week im trying to talk the owner into letting me just do it what i like to say been built the way they shoulda been...

Air dams aren't all that hard, just a nice piece of .125 AL sheet with a couple of reinforcements use a brake to make any bends, use a piece of cardboard and then make the finished piece then add the reinforcements to keep it at the right attitude so it doesn't bend in, and ultimately you want it as close to the ground as possible, and as far forward as possible, then make a few test runs and see how she feels upstairs, you may need to add a little spoiler off the rear deck lid, don't make it stand up, you want as little angle as possible, the more angle the more downforce and more drag, also the longer the spoiler is the added downforce and drag.

.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Don't use a flat cam.

X2. You need one with lobes.

I couldn't help myself.

 

[robinsonwr]

Oil clearances are absolutely crutial for sustained RPM racing.

 

[Grabinov911]

X2. You need one with lobes.

And on that note...

I'm back with the Road Racing Engine thread. My stock 440 block is now at the machine shop with a Mancini Racing internally balanced 493 stroker kit sitting next to it - a complete short block rotating assembly ready to go together. Now we're talking about cams and types of cams. The shop is a fan of Crower cams (they say they like the billet they are made from) and recommends going with a hydraulic roller setup. I'm not opposed to either for any reason that I know of. I don't mind the ease of maintenance of a hydraulic. I don't mind the limited RPM (6,500 or so) because I don't expect to be above there anyway with my setup (3.55 rear end, 727 auto trans / 2,500 RPM stall converter, 27-28" tire) . Crower doesn't have a stock Chrysler 440 hydraulic roller cam in their catalog, but the machine shop suggests going with a custom grind.

I spoke to them about the oil clearance issue and they have no problem with that because they build boat motors all the time. The problem is, the shop guy keeps telling me: You're not gonna find a cam that is good for sustained "high RPM" road racing and still comfortable on the street. To refresh your memory, what we are trying to build here is an engine that will hum along comfortably at 4,000 to 5,00 RPM, which is what it takes to go 100+ in a 3.55 Roadrunner for an hour or more.

Now I didn't tell him I need maximum horsepower at 4,000 to 5,000 RPM. I just need SUSTAINED operating at 4,000 to 5,000 RPM with enough horsepower to maintain the high speed over varied highway terrain. I know that I can keep my Roadrunner at 100+ MPH on just the stock 335HP that my 383 makes (less, since it DEFINITELY doesn't make 335HP in its current condition). So that means that as long as the motor makes 300 to 400HP between 4,000 and 5,000RPM. I'm good to go.

It can't be THAT hard to come up with a cam profile that will do that and still be streetable right? (I'm planning on standard Edelbrock performer RPM 84cc heads, my existing Schumacher tri-y headers, good ignition and some big carb.). It'll probably be closer to 450+HP in that range I'd guess. Obviously the car will spen more time on the street trolling around than on the "track" at 100+MPH.

Here's a proposed grind based on a Lunati cam from Mancini:

Item# LUN60304LK
$218.95

Product Description
Hydraulic. Hot Street cam, likes 2800 converter, Hi-Rise type dual plane intake with 850cfm carb, headers, 10:1 compression and 3.73 gears. Likes up to 200HP nitrous.

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 276/284

Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 234/242

Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .513/.533

LSA/ICL: 110/106

Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd

RPM Range: 2200-6400


Anyone care to check my calculations and my logic? Be gentle!

Thanks

Greg

 

[Boise68]

Although I am subscribed I sure don't have any words of wisdom. The Silver State in 2014 is my target, won't start on an engine until this winter.

The real dilemma is " good for sustained 'high RPM' road racing and still comfortable on the street". So I am with ya, hoping to hear from others who have the knowledge.

 

[benno440]

i would talk to the pro-touring guys, like Dan from Hotchkis, his roadrunner annihilates alot of newer cars on the road tracks.
and they build those engines for road racing etc.

www.protouringmopar.com
www.pro-touring.com
www.hotchkis.com