Help with 440/purpleshaft/Holley

[moparedtn]

Well, I'm taking her out this morning to the alignment shop.
Fought with her some more yesterday, got her good and warmed up and wouldn't you know...
When the timing is "up there", she pops and fusses when throttle is applied, bucks like a bronco.
So...
I finally dialed her back to about 8-10BTDC and she started taking throttle smoothly.
I even re-connected the vacuum advance.
We'll see on the drive this morning.
Thanks, Y'all! I'll post an update later.
Ed

 

[moparedtn]

Well, that was a disaster. Same old deal, bucking and popping when I gave it throttle.
To make matters worse, the news at the alignment shop was bad also - ball joints
are shot, both sides, upper and lowers.
Oy.
Back to square one, though. First things first. I'm going to replace the plugs because
it's almost like a couple are fouled (with electronic ignition, no less).

Going to double check on the power valve too, because unless I'm wrong, that's the only
thing on the Holley that can really dump enough fuel to foul plugs, right?
I'll make sure the lower value one is in there, since vacuum readings last night were bouncing
between 7-10.

It was good to get her out and drive her finally after all these years, but man, got a ways to go yet.
Guys, I've been 4 years, 3 bouts with cancer and tons of work and money into this thing.
It's a miracle I'm still here at all. I just really want the thing to behave so I can enjoy it a little in the time I have left.
Easy to get dejected on a test run like this morning, though. Damn.

 

[moparedtn]

Saturday evening update:
I started swapping out plugs on the passenger side and they looked fine (Autolite 85's).
Ok, that's not it....

Took the front bowl off the Holley, removed the power valve. It was a 6.5.
Oops, that's not good with only 6-7 vacuum.
Installed the only other one I had, a 3.5, buttoned it back up.

Disconnected vacuum advance and plugged outlet on carb, fired it up with an initial timing
of 12BTDC, let it warm up some.
Nope, still rough as hell when I applied throttle. No popping or snapping, just real rough.

Advanced it a couple degrees more, nope. More advance, nope. Up to 20BTDC, really nope.
Finally, out of sheer frustration, I decided to go all shadetree on it.
Laid the timing light down, grabbed the throttle and held the engine to approx. 2500RPM.
Grabbed the distributor and DROPPED timing until it smoothed out at 2500RPM, kept retarding
until it started getting rough again....
Went advance on it until the same thing, rough @ 2500RPM, brought it back down.
Kept that up until I found the smoothest running @ 2500RPM, then tightened the distributor down
and brought the idle up a little to a happy place.

Picked the timing light up again and you ain't gonna believe where the timing, at smoothest @ 2500RPM
was....
yep, 5BTDC. As in stock setting. I kid thee not.

Color me flummoxed. I have no explanation for this. At all. Anyone have a guess as to why it did this?

 

[1967coronet]

Ed just a wild guess on my part, But I wonder if you cam and gears went in a tooth off or Balancer outer ring has slipped ? mabey get #1 up to TDC and see were your balancer ends up.

 

[moparedtn]

Ed just a wild guess on my part, But I wonder if you cam and gears went in a tooth off or Balancer outer ring has slipped ? mabey get #1 up to TDC and see were your balancer ends up.

Yeah, that's about all I can think of also. Engine builder may have actually retarded the cam during install?

 

[moparedtn]

Well, it appears everyone has abandoned me.
I do appreciate those who have posted to try and help me,
but it appears no one is following the thread any longer.

 

[1967coronet]

Still here Ed, LOL, did you get #1 up to true TDC and check your balancer mark ? Just me but at the same time I would pull the cap & see where the rotor is pointing, It could be trying to spark two terminals at the same time once the advance comes in.

Get TDC and see if you can twist the rotor / advance springs by hand on past #1 to far that it would miss fire.

- - - Updated - - -

Ed, If you get to the point your sure the ignition is on the money. If you want to try a different carb I have a 750 edelbrock with a fresh kit , floats are set correct, Your welcome to use if you want to fight with your holley awhile.

Id mail it down when your done with it just mail It back.

 

[moparedtn]

Still here Ed, LOL, did you get #1 up to true TDC and check your balancer mark ? Just me but at the same time I would pull the cap & see where the rotor is pointing, It could be trying to spark two terminals at the same time once the advance comes in.

Get TDC and see if you can twist the rotor / advance springs by hand on past #1 to far that it would miss fire.

- - - Updated - - -

Ed, If you get to the point your sure the ignition is on the money. If you want to try a different carb I have a 750 edelbrock with a fresh kit , floats are set correct, Your welcome to use if you want to fight with your holley awhile.

Id mail it down when your done with it just mail It back.

Naw, nobody in this town has a TDC stop, so I'm going to make one out of a plug non-fouler. I think.
The distributor is new and seems quite tight. I haven't taken the plate out of it to mess with springs yet,
kinda nervous to do that. Wish these had the advance weights up top like a HEI. Oh well.

VERY generous offer on the Eddy!
I've always wanted to try one of those. I always liked the crisp throttle response of the Holley, but this
one I dunno man, I'm starting to really suspect it. Do they not make Holleys as well as they used to?
I've already discovered the thing had the wrong jets in it from the factory, not to mention the wrong power
valve. Bought new off the shelf from Advance, no less.

I'll try to get time to play with the TDC issue this evening. Thanks!

 

[moparedtn]

PROGRESS!
Sorry, got a little excited but that's the best this thing has run since I got it. :hello2:
Took off down the road after some warming up and it drove, for lack of a better term...normally.
Well, as normal as something that is in dire need of ball joints and such, anyways.
I made one short trip without vacuum advance and it behaved well.

Then I popped the advance hose on it (ported, from up the passenger side of the Holley
above the sight plug, right?) and tried another pass. You could tell the advance right away, but it seemed
like a little too much, with a little bit of surging under constant throttle but really crisp throttle response.

Oddly, the car settled down and lost a little bit of the gnarly cam rumpety in the process, which I know now
was just way too much advance.
I'm in the ballpark, in other words. Damn, what a relief.

Now to make up a piston stop and find true top dead center just to see where I actually am.

 

[Badvert65]

You can get it to TDC without a piston stop. All you really need to do is locate the proper spot for the timing 0 degree mark.

 

[moparedtn]

You can get it to TDC without a piston stop. All you really need to do is locate the proper spot for the timing 0 degree mark.

That's what I'm trying to do - figure out where the actual 0 degree is on the balancer. Indicated 0 may not be correct, so what I'm reading for timing could be far different from reality - hence my needing to find true TDC.

 

[1967coronet]

Thats good news Ed, keep on wrenching, I know you will get it figured out.

 

[GearAddict]

glad your getting in the ballpark. I just caught up with this thread and can say I went through the same bouts... .509 purple cam, 383, 4 Speed, low vacuum, ran like crap when I bought it (your descriptions bring me back to a bad place in time). To be honest, I'm still tweaking it here and there.. In the end, I'm resigned to ditching the cam. I just feel like I'm always fighting it in trying to get the car tuned right.

That said.. figure out the timing marks (5 degrees doesn't sound right at all for that cam).

I'm running 18 degr initial 36 total, all in by 2200 RPM (MSD distr springs). Holley with 3.5 Power Valve (had major issues with the stock 6.5 due to obvious reasons). Idle set at 1K RPM. She's got a healthy chop at idle, but smooths out when I gas it.

Best of luck to you.

 

[moparedtn]

glad your getting in the ballpark. I just caught up with this thread and can say I went through the same bouts... .509 purple cam, 383, 4 Speed, low vacuum, ran like crap when I bought it (your descriptions bring me back to a bad place in time). To be honest, I'm still tweaking it here and there.. In the end, I'm resigned to ditching the cam. I just feel like I'm always fighting it in trying to get the car tuned right.

That said.. figure out the timing marks (5 degrees doesn't sound right at all for that cam).

I'm running 18 degr initial 36 total, all in by 2200 RPM (MSD distr springs). Holley with 3.5 Power Valve (had major issues with the stock 6.5 due to obvious reasons). Idle set at 1K RPM. She's got a healthy chop at idle, but smooths out when I gas it.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks, I do appreciate that. Yep, same power valve here (and upsized to 75s on primary jets).
Although it does appear the timing marks on the balancer are probably way off, they do give me some reference to how much advance is taking place with my el cheapo timing light.
It appears I'm getting "enough" advance for the cam used just from mechanical only - when vacuum is connected, she does get a little too much advance, seems like.
I haven't tried the springs yet because, well, they're under the plate in the distributor and I'm gonna want to take it out of the engine to do that (dropping stuff down in there is likely with my ham fingers).

But yeah, pretty much what you describe is what mine is doing as well. I'm of the same mind about ditching this cam, but that'll come later if at all possible - I'm balls deep in time and money on this thing and medical bills take priority these days.
Close, though, close enough to actually drive the dang thing.
Halleluyah.

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, do you have a adjustable vacuum advance ? Im pretty sure if its got the hex head shape and not the smooth cone one it is adjustable with a allen wrench through the nipple port, Someone previous may have cranked it all the way.

 

[moparedtn]

Ed, do you have a adjustable vacuum advance ? Im pretty sure if its got the hex head shape and not the smooth cone one it is adjustable with a allen wrench through the nipple port, Someone previous may have cranked it all the way.

Yes, I assume the advance is adjustable with a 3/32" allen, just haven't gotten that far.
Oh, I can about bet the previous owner had no idea about such things, so I don't think he messed with it.
Thanks!

 

[moparedtn]

Epilogue:
If anyone reads through this thread in the future, it turns out the cam had wiped two lobes and caved two lifters. A new cam has been installed and all is well.

So....I guess - nevermind
Lots of great advice from folks on this thread, though.

 

[GearAddict]

Epilogue:
If anyone reads through this thread in the future, it turns out the cam had wiped two lobes and caved two lifters. A new cam has been installed and all is well.

So....I guess - nevermind
Lots of great advice from folks on this thread, though.

Wow! I'm surprised it was running at all

 

[jeepers007]

Epilogue:
If anyone reads through this thread in the future, it turns out the cam had wiped two lobes and caved two lifters. A new cam has been installed and all is well.

So....I guess - nevermind
Lots of great advice from folks on this thread, though.

At least you know if your timing chain is good, and where everything is set now.

 

[moparedtn]

Wow! I'm surprised it was running at all

That was my exact reaction when I pulled that cam out. "Holy crap!"

- - - Updated - - -

At least you know if your timing chain is good, and where everything is set now.

Yessir. It's all my doing now. New double roller timing chain and gears and my installation, so there's nobody to fuss at but me now.