Timing at 0??

[OH71RRunner]

Guess what? I need help AGAIN......
I started chasing some overheating issues a while back. Biggest help was finding a false reading due to temp gauge wiring. It still was high tho. I did all the typical stuff: thermostat, coolant change, checked radiator hoses, and as suggested, timing. Timing didn't look right. It bounced all over the place. It wouldn't stay where it was supposed to be.
Bought a new pro billet msd distributor. From the different threads I had read, changed springs to one silver, one blue. And changed bushing to the black one. New plug wires installed. Plugs looked good. But will replace those later this week too.
Checked for TDC. Mark on the damper lines up with 0 on the tab. Plug wires checked for correct order and rotor positioned to #1 plug wire on cap.
Engine started fine. Tried to set initial timing to 10* BTDC. Runs like crap. It runs best at about 10*AFTER TDC. OK, tried to set total timing at 36* BTDC and forget about initial. No luck. Runs horrible. Set it to 0 and runs fine. Runs better about 5* AFTER TDC. Drive it with total of 36* and i get lots of pinging under load. Set it back to 0 total and runs better.
This is fairly close to what the other distributor was doing.
Have the MSD 6al and MSD Blaster 2.
Carbs were also checked and reset according to the 6 pack engine handbook. They seem to be working properly.
So, what am i doing wrong?

 

[miller]

Timing didn't look right. It bounced all over the place. It wouldn't stay where it was supposed to be.

Timing all over the place? That is a sign of problem with the timing chain (loose).

It runs best at about 10*AFTER TDC.

Definately something wrong there...nothing to do with the dizzy...but, probably cam timing/timing chain.
Maybe a bit more history on the motor...any recent work?

 

[OH71RRunner]

It's been several years since the motor was built. It has had 12-15k miles since then.
There has been no recent work to the motor.

 

[miller]

Got it. This a 71 year motor...440, right? Don't remember the years used, but know some of them, Mopar used a nylon geared timing chain set-up, that wouldn't last too long. Or, if the chain is wore out, can slip a tooth...and throw timing off.

But, past that...what trans? Think many standard trans, timing can be 0 - 5 before.
Distributor drive gear/shaft...might be worth checking. Pull the dizzy, then the drive gear. Look at the hex end of the shaft, to be sure it's not rounded (and slipping), check the gear on the shaft for looseness.
That drive gear, and timing chain/gears, are the only parts that could be causing the floating timing adjustment.

If I've missed something, someone jump on board...

 

[OH71RRunner]

The motor is from a 69 or 70. 727 tranny with reverse pattern and manual valve body.
The motor was built back when there was extra money to pay someone that knows motors. Kids and life has been using that extra money these days, so I'm stuck doing things myself now. Lol
Is there a way to check the timing chain without disassembly of the front of the motor?

 

[Schober Motorsports]

Did you pull and plug the line for the vacuum advance? If it has one that is.

 

[OH71RRunner]

No, there's no vacuum advance. I should've stated that earlier as that may help with diagnosis.

 

[Schober Motorsports]

How about the harmonic balancer? It is old with the rubber squeezing out? Possibly spun and isn't showing correct TDC? Just thoughts.

**EDIT: Nevermind, just reread the post and saw that you have already checked that.

 

[OH71RRunner]

I took the distributor cap off and checked the degrees of movement on the damper based on rotor movement. The damper moved about 3/8 inch. The damper is about 24 inches in circumference. If my math is right, that comes up to 5.625 degrees of damper movement.
I'll check the distributor gear to see its condition and post that as well.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Taking the distributor cap off and rotating the crankshaft clockwise and them counter clockwise while watching the distributor rotor will give a good indication of timing slack. While at install a piston stop and check tdc location.

 

[OH71RRunner]

That's what i had done. We put tape on the damper, moved it both ways watching for the rotor to move. And marked it when the rotor moved.
When i first checked for TDC, i just pulled the valve cover and watched for the valves to both be closed. That was also confirmed when installing the new distributor. I don't have a piston stop. So that was my only other sure-fire way.
I'm in the process of checking the distributor gear. Does it come out to inspect it?

 

[OH71RRunner]

OK i got it out. Here's what the end of the shaft looks like.

Is it supposed to be flat or kinda tapered like this one?

 

[mopar 3 B]

That's what i had done. We put tape on the damper, moved it both ways watching for the rotor to move. And marked it when the rotor moved.
When i first checked for TDC, i just pulled the valve cover and watched for the valves to both be closed. That was also confirmed when installing the new distributor. I don't have a piston stop. So that was my only other sure-fire way.
I'm in the process of checking the distributor gear. Does it come out to inspect it?

You are still guessing on tdc. The only way to get a true read is with a stop.

 

[OH71RRunner]

You are still guessing on tdc. The only way to get a true read is with a stop.

OK. I'll get one and try that.

 

[khryslerkid]

I made my own stop in this thread. Remove rockers on #1 cylinder. to be safe.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ade-tools-lets-see-them.56433/#post-910446556

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/locating-tdc-on-452-heads.114551/#post-910471659

 

[OH71RRunner]

You are still guessing on tdc. The only way to get a true read is with a stop.

Thanks for continuing to press the TDC issue. I was off by a little bit. The mark on the damper was not exactly right with the tab.
Got the total timing set to 36* BTDC. Drove down the road a little bit - pinging under fairly hard throttle. Retard the timing a little bit - slight pinging. Retard a little more. Seems to have done the trick.

On the way back home, smelled gas and had no throttle response. Shut it down, popped the hood, gas was everywhere. I thought I didn't get a line tight. Tried starting it and gas was spewing out of the top of the center carb.


I'm about done trying to do this myself. Every time I do something, it's either wrong or I make something else worse.
I'm gonna let it sit for today so i don't get too pissed off.
I'll try to get back to it soon.
The good news is that the timing may be about where it should be. Lol

 

[OH71RRunner]

I made my own stop in this thread. Remove rockers on #1 cylinder. to be safe.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ade-tools-lets-see-them.56433/#post-910446556

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/locating-tdc-on-452-heads.114551/#post-910471659

That's a neat setup.
My neighbor was home today. Hate going to him cus he's a Ford guy. Lol. He's got lots of odd tools. He had a piston stop that i borrowed. I need to get my own as it is indeed the thing to use.

 

[Schober Motorsports]

Thanks for continuing to press the TDC issue. I was off by a little bit. The mark on the damper was not exactly right with the tab.
Got the total timing set to 36* BTDC. Drove down the road a little bit - pinging under fairly hard throttle. Retard the timing a little bit - slight pinging. Retard a little more. Seems to have done the trick.

On the way back home, smelled gas and had no throttle response. Shut it down, popped the hood, gas was everywhere. I thought I didn't get a line tight. Tried starting it and gas was spewing out of the top of the center carb.


I'm about done trying to do this myself. Every time I do something, it's either wrong or I make something else worse.
I'm gonna let it sit for today so i don't get too pissed off.
I'll try to get back to it soon.
The good news is that the timing may be about where it should be. Lol

Sounds like maybe a stuck open float. We all have those kinda days, just be done for the day and pick it up next weekend. Cars are a real pain sometimes haha

 

[Cranky]

After 48 years, I've lost count of how many times I've soaked my engines down with gas. Heck, I even set one on fire one time because I forgot I pulled the carb off a few days earlier and was going to start it up to move it. Smelled gas and poof...smoke. That's when it hit me that this moron (me) messed up. Luckily, I was able to put the fire out before anything got damaged but for a minute there, things were looking kinda grim lol.

 

[miller]

Ahhh...good to hear you found the better side of 0! Gettin' closer every day.

Here's my 'gas' story. In my younger days, was a motorcycle escort, for awhile, though the outfit also had cars and trucks, for oversize loads. Slow day, so decided I would use one of the pickups, to go have breakfast. Cold that morning, so pulled a little choke, fired up that old Ford, letting it warm up a bit.
Mechanic came running out, yelling for me to shut it off! Well hell, got pissed, shut the thing down, and climbed out ready for 'whatever'.
Hehe. Mechanic threw his hands up, saying 'let me show you something', and popped open the hood. There was NO carb...just the open intake, gas line perfectly sitting over the port! (Sure did seem to run good) Could have been a good ride! Mechanic had the carb on his workbench.